Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 14:10Orlando Ebasdotter wrote: It's no secret that I'm disgusted with the way the election went, slightly by Grendel's eventual actions, but more so from the pressure put on him by you, Tal, and Meddy.
Ha. What about the pressure you put on him, Obie? What about adopting a campaign platform based on slinging mud? What about Brennen's blistering demands of blind loyalty? What about the fact that, hey, there's a wedding coming up, and he's the star attraction? You focus your anger on the people whom you feel are responsible, but the list is incomplete. I was the one who advised him to jump ship if he didn't feel he could do it. Strangely, I recall that I was also among the group that offered you another option if he did quit the race, which you politely declined.
Well, he's burned a lot of bridges with myself and some of the other 'older' members of the NH (why you don't see them anymore, anyway), with some members of Wakagashira, and his former company, the MacGregors. Why would someone do something like that, you ask? My opinion is that these groups may make him look bad to some members of the CoK.
Well, your opinion is wrong. I'm calling your bluff; name names. Did you bother to maybe find out why he left the MacGregors? Or did you just listen to Brennen's rants? Or maybe Kayden's?
Again, you aren't looking at the big picture.
Lightly...maybe, maybe not. You just did bestow it to your friend. That, in and of itself looks bad to me, and will always shed questionable light onto Grendel's Knighting.
So, you're saying that a King should never Knight anyone who is his friend? By that logic, there are only about three people across the entire game who I could Knight as a King. The fallacy is in assuming that a King is Knighting his friend because the candidate is his friend, which is flatley untrue. Christ, I still consider you a friend, even if you are going off half-cocked and ass-backwards.
Let's look at them for a minute, and compare what I feel to what his knight listed, and see how he stacks up:
Integrity- I'm sorry, but hardly. Perhaps integrety to the right people, but integrity as a person...no. Integrity requires honesty. When you lie to people, and are otherwise two-faced about things, then you have no honor, and you have no integrity.
Really... So integrity doesn't involve sacrifice of yourself in order to help a friend? Because that's exactly what happened in the election. The dichotomy you created put Grendel under so much stress that he was suffering physical attacks from it, but he stuck it out for as long as he did because he had promised you he would. Besides, it's not like he cooked the books or put someone else's name on a treasury report; that's a lack of integrity.
Leadership- Undoubtedly. I have no dispute that Grendel is a leader. He may not use it for the cause of good, but lead, he does.
By "cause of good" you mean "your cause." Frankly, Grendel is the best leader I've seen come up since Cedric. When he takes on a project, it gets done, which is more than I can say about a lot of people, in Amtgard or outside of it.
Industry- Again no problem. Grendel is a very busy body...until it stresses him out too much.
You fail to mention that "too much" means to the point where he is blinded by migraines. I don't know about you, but I cut my obligations well short of the point where I start suffering physical detriment.
Pride- Hmm...I never really thought him as being prideful, until this past year, when it has been severely at the detriment of:
Hmm... don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. Everyone that comes up in the Circle has an ego; maybe the fact that Grendel can subsume his is the reason he got through and you didn't.
Humility- I notice that he shares a deficiency in this virtue with you Kord, and you too Medryn. Always having to be right is not a virtue of knighthood...it's a virtue of hypocracy.
Hah! Oh, that's a good one... Your definition is wrong. Humility is about subsuming the ego, not about admitting when you are wrong. Which, I'd like to point out, isn't something you are very good at either. For instance, at the end of this post, you're going to think that I am attacking you because Grendel was my squire. While that may fit a certain construction of the facts, the truth is that I am offering criticism in the hopes that you will re-evaluate your position. If you think that I am in the wrong, then try to change my mind, but the rhetoric offered here isn't sound enough to do so.
Excellence- Ehh...I have never felt that Grendel 'excelled' as a leader. He doesn't have the follow through to get a project done to its rightful completion. Lots of ideas...little ability to plan and get it done.
Hmm... I believe I covered this under "Leadership".
Imperial Outlook- No problem here, either. I think that Grendel is known (liked or hated) throughout the Empire.
Frankly, except for you and Brennen, I can't think of anyone who hates Grendel. Of course, I don't know everyone in the Empire, but I'll bet that anyone else who says they "hate" Grendel doesn't know him. Don't let someone tell you how the apple tastes, take a bite and find out for yourself.
Respectability- Well...if you don't know how I feel about this one already, you're dumber than I thought.
Heh. Frankly, I feel safer entrusting my reputation to Grendel than some of the people who were already belted. I suppose that I'm a bit biased, really, because I wouldn't have taken him as a squire if I didn't feel he was respectable.
Well...what about me, then, all knowing Emperor? I have more experience with Knights than most, and feel exactly the same way. I know what kind of apathetic people they are, and like it or not, it HAS turned into the ol' boys club, because the majority of the people making the decisions are all of the same social circle.
You are burnt out, jaded and calling sour grapes. You are trying to play the political game the same way your Knight did, except that you really and truely do want everyone to like you, which is not an option by that method. You feel betrayed, which you have been, but not by whom you think. You are an intelligent and reasonable man, who has been poisoned by the vipers whispering in his ears, telling him "they all hate you" and "they are trying to hurt you" and "that should rightfully be yours." None of that is true.
You feel betrayed because of the election? Where did the "Vote for us, because if they win they'll sodomize your dog" platform come from? That's who you need to talk with. It's a truism that you don't win an Amtgard election by getting people to vote for you, you do it by getting people to vote against your opponent. But when your first volley is such a spiteful, mudslinging attack against the status quo, you just give ammunition to the other side. And when you fail to play the graceful loser, you lose those people who were giving you the benefit of the doubt.
That hasn't left. The game hasn't really changed much since you got in; you've just started focusing on different aspects.
Perhaps the 'truth' has become her focus? Instead of smoke and mirrors, why not just be open about everything? We would all be able to make much better ammends if it were.
Heh... The truth? Tell me what the truth is, and tell me why it is the truth, and maybe I'll believe it. What of this openness do you want? Do you want to know who in the circle voted which way? Ask them. You want to know why Grendel was chosen over you? Ask Kord. You want to know why Grendel quit the race? Ask him. The "truth" is availible, you just haven't looked. After all, it might mean you are wrong.
You may not want them, but in order for this game to run, they are a necessity.
Are they? Will these people not still do the work that needs to be done, without a strip of leather? Is that not one of the virtues of Knighthood?
That isn't the question at hand. The scenario is "get rid of everyone who is a Knight, holds an office, or wants to do either." I can tell you exactly what you get then: Dagohir. Sure, Dag has it's own virtues, but it isn't Amtgard. If that's what you want, then no problem. It's available.
However, to answer your question, yes, those people would still be doing those things. Most of them, though, wouldn't be doing it here.
Guilting someone into doing something brings nothing but resentment, even if it's a friend. We're way too apathetic as a Kingdom. If you need to be told to do something, or will only do it if 'no one else will,' then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Perhaps everyone, myself included, should take a step back, and really evaluate why you play this game. If it's for the wrong reasons, then what the fuck are you still doing here? I'm sure that the game will get along just fine without the attitude. I imagine that it'll actually be a much better place to play. Drop the attitude where you have to control everything, and then blame it on 'no one else will do it.' Just GO! We'll all get along fine.
So a purge, then? Get rid of the dead weight, everyone who's not contributing (or rather, not contributing for the right reasons). Heh. Then every park will look like Stormkeep. Make a list of your 10 favorite Amtgarders. How many of them do you think will have to go? At least half, probably more like 3/4. You cut most of the old people, and even some of the newer folk. It's like Logan's Run, Amt-style. Of course, it all depends on how you define "the right reasons."
As for the reason that the "no one else will do it" attitude, do you know why that came about? Because certain things have to get done. Why is it the old crusty Knights that so often get saddled doing them? It goes back to the big I, Integrity. I don't want to do it, no one will be too disappointed (or maybe even notice) if it doesn't happen, but I'm going to do it because it strengthens the group. That's what the "no one else will do it" attitude is.
Many of you are probably shocked that I'm saying all this. Well...I may be burning a lot of bridges as I respond, but I can't help the way I truly feel. I wish that more of us wouldn't try to use smoke and mirrors, and just spit out how their feeling. Trust me, it's very liberating, and while it may make some enemies, it lets everyone else know exactly how you're feeling, so they can understand where you're coming from.
Nope. The only thing shocking is that you didn't do it Sunday night, and that's really just more of a mild suprise. You may be burning bridges, but probably not with the people you think. For my part, the bridge is still intact. For others, the bridges were probably burned a long time back.
You have a choice ahead of you, Obie. A lot of people have come to this point, and there are a lot of paths to choose from. You can follow Killraven, give up on Amtgard and Knighthood entirely. Or you can follow Brennen, and let this gnaw at you until you become a cancerous canker, spewing venom and bile. Or you can follow Gameboy, attacking the leadership and generally just being an ass about it. Or you can do the slow fade out, like so many others. Or, you can sit back, re-evaluate in the face of new data, and maybe change your mind.
Post edited by: cullum, at: 2005/10/04 14:17
Superstar, do you think you're what they say you are?
| | The topic has been locked.
rabbitt13
User
Posts: 293
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 14:25Cullum wrote: [quoteWell, your opinion is wrong. I'm calling your bluff; name names. Did you bother to maybe find out why he left the MacGregors? Or did you just listen to Brennen's rants? Or maybe Kayden's?
Cullum I really rather you hadn't brought Kayden in this, however since you did. I asked Kayden why Grendel dropped he kindly said that he(Grendel) wanted to venture off by himself and really put all of his focus on his house vetra skuld. IN no fashion did Kayden rant badly in any way shape or form. Never has...so I don't understand why you say this.
And now that you are slinging mud...maybe you should look before your throw. As Both Kayden and I both believe that Grendel does deserve his crown belt. We have asked Mike Hog many times why Grendel wasn't dawning the white belt yet. We felt he should have gotten it last year instead of a YEAR later. But we blieve that was a good choice by the CoK. So before you drag good people into the mud, please make sure that your information is friggin accurate.
Thank you kindly bunny
| | The topic has been locked.
lillyhuny
Visitor
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 14:38Personally speaking, I think of myself as the eternal squire. I have no desire to advance to knighthood, because I enjoy my niche in Amtgard. In the last 13 years I've held three red belts, all under knights who have had to prove themselves worthy to their peers. I've seen a number of people come and go, and the ones who stay are those who enjoy being in a family - taking the non-stop bitching and great nights by the campfire together.
Reading this thread, I am struck by how careful most of the responses are. And then there was Edan, but well, that's Edan. He is right, there will always be situations where someone doesn't like the decisions being made or who is making them. So buy your kneepads, and play on.
As for Obie, you are AGAIN slinging mud. This is what caused your bid for office to fail, nothing and no one else. If you want to talk about taking responsibility, then do it. Yeah, you're leaving - and you don't care what kind of an impression you leave behind because you think your own knighthood is now unattainable. Pitiful. So you light a fire under a new member who hasn't watched you manuever for a belt. Real quality of behavior. If you want to actually have a discussion about this, and not just try to get in a last flaming before you go, you have my email.
-morgan
| | The topic has been locked.
Wendy
User
Posts: 11
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 14:47b]Rioko wrote:[/b] I know that it takes a lot to become a knight in this game; or, it could just take a little sucking up to the right people, ~Rioko
No offence but a little sucking up is better then being a bitch and saying all the knights suck... If you want the knights circle to talk about you and not just say no way in hell then being nice to everyone helps alot. There are differnt types of sucking up and I understand the type you are talking about - in this case you are wrong.
Let me explain how the circle works (sorry if this has already been done) A meeting is scheduled and hopefully most of the active knights show up. Usually we have anywhere form 10-15. We talk about each quallified person one at a time. Every knight has a turn to say how they feel. We then vote - majority wins - Usually if its a slim margin then we say we will wait. We always hope for a land slid - and its usually close to this. Only active knights can vote - inactive knights can say how they feel but that is it. If a knight can't make the meeting we have a GMK we can email our feelings to and have them read. No one is knighted without a circle - the Monarch can decide to knight someone against the circles wishes but in my 13 yrs of Amtgard I have never heard of this happening in the IM. I have seen a monarch say no.
b]Rioko wrote:[/b] Serpents, are you still creating and teaching? ~Rioko
I teach whenever anyone wants to learn. And create whenever I have time - unfortunattly there is never enough time for everything.
b]Rioko wrote:[/b] I know that politics in general are pretty aweful, but I think that most have forgotten that this is a game, not a popularity contest, and not the real world where power and controll mean everything.... it's a game. ~Rioko
I have been trying to remind people of this for years. The fact that you are saying it I think is kind of funny considering who your squire is (Obie) the person who has sorely forgotten this fact. I think of Obie as a brother and am ready to kick him in the ass for this. I know you care for him as well. The one piece of advice I have for you - start having your own oppinions - ones that havn't been swayed by someone who is unhappy right now. Also get all of your facts - talk to everyone in volved then make up your mind. The biggest problem Amtgard has is lack of comunication.
b]Rioko wrote:[/b] I want amtgard back! I don't want the knights and the office holders! ~Rioko
You might not like this answer but with out the knights and office holders then there wouldn't be an Amtgard and you wouldn't have a place reserved for you and all of your amtgard friends to camp.
As a last coment (and I'm sure I'll remember something else I wanted to say later ) If I remember right many people have said that being knight is a popularity contest..... How? When you have X# of people voting on you and majority wins. If it was all about the people all the current knights liked then some of the belts would never have been passed out, some would be taken back, and there would be a hell of a lot more out there. We only discuss qualified people - there are a bunch of people who "deserve them" just for attitude and love of the game but it still comes down to the paper work.
Sir Roo
| | The topic has been locked.
KaydenmacG
User
Posts: 26
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 14:55Or did you just listen to Brennen's rants? Or maybe Kayden's?
Hey Cullum, Hey Pot this is the Kettle...
Now it is my turn to call bluffs, yours in particular. I would like to know from you ONE time I went on a rant about Grendel. Just one, according to your recollection of my "ranting" skills, seconded only to Brennen, this task shouldn't be too hard. Except for the fact that it never happened. I respect Grendel and I feel that he has earned his belt. I consider him a friend and I hope he does me. For this reason alone I would not badmouth him. Believe me there are much easier targets to badmouth or "Rant" about if I wanted to. I try to be pleasant with everybody, even those I do not care for.
Talk about losing respect for a knight...
Kayden"Life is a series of unplanned accidents, largely because no one asked my opinion. Me, I would rather it be a series of planned accidents, and I can think of a few people that I would like to plan some for." --Walter Slovosky--
| | The topic has been locked.
Rewth
Admin
Posts: 1526
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 14:56Cullum wrote: Frankly, except for you and Brennen, I can't think of anyone who hates Grendel. Of course, I don't know everyone in the Empire, but I'll bet that anyone else who says they "hate" Grendel doesn't know him. Don't let someone tell you how the apple tastes, take a bite and find out for yourself.
love the novella's guys... christ you make it hard to read these forums some times...
but again i found this a little odd...
where did you get hte impression that brennen hates grendel? or that kayden and brennen hold so many issues with him and rant at such length? as far as i understand grendel was unimpressed by the macG's lack of motivation lately and dropped. they smiled, nodded thier agreement and let him go. they aren't a service based company. i've yet to hear any of hte mac g's say antyhing even remotely negative about grendel.
secondly... while i don't know anyone (even obie) that "hates" grendel, i can certainly name a few folks that feel he stepped on them a few times to get to the top. a few people who feel he disassociated with them in order to improve his image with certain folks. accurate or not, the feelings are there. denying them shows a fair amount of ignorance of the whole picture, something none of us can see, but all of us need to be aware exists.
there was something in the tone of your post that perhaps i'm reading incrrectly cullum. in the last year i have heard tremendous amounts of ranting about this "rift between the NH and the IMD" yet, as a native and regular attendee of the NH i havn't seen it. not a single player in the NH has actively professed a dislike of the folks in the current IMD. though everyone keeps talking bout it. to the point that i've actively seen brennen get upset and rant against the people spreading hte statement. it makes me wonder, and the tone of your post and the people named within seem to point to, if perhaps the rift only exists on the side of the IMD?
this is REALLY the wrong forum to bring this up in and i don't want to derail the thread... so why don't we discuss it in private? email me if you have the time (rewth@rewth.com)"But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
| | The topic has been locked.
Cullum
User
Posts: 246
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 14:58rabbitt13 wrote: Cullum I really rather you hadn't brought Kayden in this, however since you did. I asked Kayden why Grendel dropped he kindly said that he(Grendel) wanted to venture off by himself and really put all of his focus on his house vetra skuld. IN no fashion did Kayden rant badly in any way shape or form. Never has...so I don't understand why you say this.
I said it as the result of an invalid assumption on my part. I apologize, and while that is what I assumed, I am glad that I was wrong.Superstar, do you think you're what they say you are?
| | The topic has been locked.
Arthur_MacGregor
User
Posts: 33
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 15:11Plain and simple because I leave soon.
Grendel did not burn any bridges with the MacGregors, I've seen nothing but civility come from Matt towards Grendel, and that's an oddity :-P Grendel is still my brother and a friend of the MacGregors. We just aren't what he was looking for in a house hold, he spoke his peace, and we gracefully let him go.
But shit, as long as people who are leaving town are slinging mud I might as well too right?
Fucking no, I know better than to stoop down to a third grade level of hypocrisy. Grow the fuck up.
--ArthurI put the Laughter into Slaughter
| | The topic has been locked.
Cullum
User
Posts: 246
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 15:28Rewth wrote: or that kayden and brennen hold so many issues with him and rant at such length? as far as i understand grendel was unimpressed by the macG's lack of motivation lately and dropped. they smiled, nodded thier agreement and let him go. they aren't a service based company. i've yet to hear any of hte mac g's say antyhing even remotely negative about grendel.
Yeah, that was an invalid assumption on my part.
there was something in the tone of your post that perhaps i'm reading incrrectly cullum. in the last year i have heard tremendous amounts of ranting about this "rift between the NH and the IMD" yet, as a native and regular attendee of the NH i havn't seen it. not a single player in the NH has actively professed a dislike of the folks in the current IMD. though everyone keeps talking bout it. to the point that i've actively seen brennen get upset and rant against the people spreading hte statement. it makes me wonder, and the tone of your post and the people named within seem to point to, if perhaps the rift only exists on the side of the IMD?
Hmm... It is entirely possible that this is one of those old chestnuts that's lasted long past it's usual shelf-life. I'll have to sit down and re-evaluate it... I'm definitely going to take you up on your offer.Superstar, do you think you're what they say you are?
| | The topic has been locked.
Talisin
Admin
Posts: 535
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 15:30Orlando Ebasdotter wrote: spew
Bravery and integrity would have entailed you bringing your concerns to Grendel- or to me, or to Kord, or to Medryn- face to face, where it can be discussed in person, not posting them in a public forum just before you leave the state.
Rioko, I hope that you take the suggestions to find out more, talk to more people, before you judge.
Grendel, I am sorry that people are trying to ruin what should be a very happy time for you.
Obie... I initially argued against us knighting Grendel at all during this reign- not because he didn't deserve it or hadn't earned it. I argued against it because I knew you were going to pitch a fit and try to cause a stink, and Grendel deserves better. I am sorry that I was right.
*EDIT: Rewth... everyone already knows I'm teh suxxorz, so nyah!
Post edited by: Talisin, at: 2005/10/04 15:41Tal
| | The topic has been locked.
Korderellin
Admin
Posts: 380
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 16:09I must admit, when I first saw Obie's post, I was infuriated. I had a nice, long scathing reply ready to go.
But then I realized that this would accomplish nothing useful.
There are a number of items here that require a response, so here we go:
Rioko - I am sorry that you feel this way, and I would like to talk to you and see if we can somehow undo the damage that has been done.
Obie - A few points:
1) I had no idea Rioko was your WaA. So no, I did not know that this was coming from you. I assumed this was largely about bitterness in Crimson Dawn, and wanted to find out more about the situation.
2) Yes, Grendel is my friend. As others have said, however, it would be ludicrous to assume that monarch could only give belts to people they don't like. And there is a difference between Grendel being my friend and me giving Grendel a belt BECAUSE he is my friend. And I assure you, the latter couldn't be farther from the truth.
3) You are going to believe what you will believe, and I can see that there is nothing I nor anyone else can do to change that. Suffice to say that, I truly believe that there is no one more deserving of this honor than Grendel, and apparently many others believe this, as well. I hope you can see that at some point. I'm am sorry you don't see that right now, and felt it necessary to respond like this, in a public forum.
Rewth - Perhaps it does better for the IM if knights are unsure of their status in her eyes, but that does nothing for her status in their eyes. People tend to not look favorably on those who they feel hold disdain for them. I would also be extremely interested in discussing the IMD/NH rift with you privately.
Grendel - On behalf of the Empire and it's inhabitants, I humbly apologize that this has happened, and I hope this has not in any way diminished the honor you have received.Kord
| | The topic has been locked.
Medryn
User
Posts: 207
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 16:39I am not entirely sure how I got dragged in to this, but since I have been I'd like to say a few things, and mostly ask some questions. I'm not here to fling feces like a self absorbed monkey. Instead I'd like to try and clean up some of the feces that has been flung about.
Obie:
I am sorry that you are currently so bitter towards the game. I was under the impression up until today that we were friends. I wouldn't call us close, but I would say that I still consider you a friend. I'm sad to hear that you feel differently, although I am glad to know you still feel that we are on close enough terms for you to use my nickname. I don't know what you have heard, but I never intentionally put pressure on Grendel, he asked for advice and I told him to be true to his heart, I even went so far as to talk to him and specifically say that I wasn't telling him to drop out of the race. You mentioned my name again under the heading "always has to be right". I'll admit I often am overly argumentative, but I by no means have a monopoly on the truth. I'm wrong far more often than I'd like, and I'd like to think that I can generally admit when I am wrong. I really am sad that you are so angry at me, I'd really like to talk with you about it, over email if you feel a face to face would do more harm than good. Hell call me if you want, we can talk on the phone: 303-638-4086.
Rioko: I don't believe we have met, but I'd love to talk about this in person, right now a full response would be a bit wordy and take up a ton of space, if you email me I'll be happy to talk that way.
Rewth: see my response in cullum's other thread.
Grendel: Allow me to echo the apologies above. I was afraid of this, and am sad to see it happen.
| | The topic has been locked.
Rioko
User
Posts: 655
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 16:46ok... a lot a reading... -sigh- Obie, Please don't think that my opinions have to do mostly with you. I have a very large respect for you and I have heard good and bad things... but the respect and friendship is still there. It is very true that you brought a few things that would have otherwise gone unnoticed to my attention, but I am so glad that you did.
Grendel, I have to say... damn. I heard that you were knighted and I didn't know what to think. Whenever you and I were in the same area, you seemed very distant and somewhat cold. I take part blame for this thought. I never came to you and had a real conversation. I apologize if there are anyhard feelings. The question about knighthood was already there and what I wrote was not about you alone.
Kord, I realize that when I was speaking of politics that it singled you out. This was not intentional. I am nor ever was, a fan of politics, and you happen to be one of the better people that I have known in Amtgard. I don't however, want you to think that my opinion is what the rest of CD is thinking aswell. I have made my own thoughts and my own evaluations. I hope that I can be proven wrong onsome of the subjects that I wrote of, but for the time being I think that I may remain a little stubborn on the subject.
Not everyone is going to get along.... I can see that. I never intended to name names, and I still am not going to. I never wanted to cause any harm by my post, but I can see that I have made the mistake of not proof reading my first post to find the correct tone to put to it. I will be glad to talk to ANYONE about my thoughts, and there are a few people that I will be writing to, but I really didn't want to cause 'mud slinging' or personal quams within the group.
I picked out knighthood and politics because these are the areas that I am not seeing true Amtgard beauty in. I hope that you all can understand where I am coming from on this.
riokoxofxcrimsondawn@hotmail.com
~Rioko
Post edited by: Rioko, at: 2005/10/04 16:49However mean your life is, meet it and live it; do not shun it and call it hard names. -Henry David Thoreau
| | The topic has been locked.
Orlando Ebasdotter
User
Posts: 672
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 16:48Cullum wrote: Ha. What about the pressure you put on him, Obie? What about adopting a campaign platform based on slinging mud?
I've got all the emails at home where he agreed to, and didn't even bring up the campaign platform. Maybe I'll go back through them and post them all.
Well, your opinion is wrong. I'm calling your bluff; name names. Did you bother to maybe find out why he left the MacGregors? Or did you just listen to Brennen's rants? Or maybe Kayden's?
Again, you aren't looking at the big picture. I'll check with the people that I feel he stepped on, and get their approval before dragging them into public. The people I name are ones I have direct criticisms of.
So, you're saying that a King should never Knight anyone who is his friend? By that logic, there are only about three people across the entire game who I could Knight as a King. The fallacy is in assuming that a King is Knighting his friend because the candidate is his friend, which is flatley untrue. Christ, I still consider you a friend, even if you are going off half-cocked and ass-backwards.
And I, you. I may be going off ass-backwards, but it's about fuckin time we start talking about the things that really do bug us, don't you think? I don't think you're seeing my point, though. I'm talking about close friends, company members, not just some guy that you call friend that you know from out of town, or another province or kingdom, but the inner circle of friends that we all have. Because someone is my friend means I'm going to have to make sure they're merit and character are FLAWLESS before I would even consider it. And even then, I may hold off for the next guy to do it, so that the impression I give to the populace isn't one that can be misconstrued. I'm not talking about the assumptions here, I'm talking about the impressions that everyone else gets.
Really... So integrity doesn't involve sacrifice of yourself in order to help a friend? Because that's exactly what happened in the election. The dichotomy you created put Grendel under so much stress that he was suffering physical attacks from it, but he stuck it out for as long as he did because he had promised you he would. Besides, it's not like he cooked the books or put someone else's name on a treasury report; that's a lack of integrity. Ohh please, Mark. Again, I will probably post a 'collection' of emails to support my point at a later date. And I'd like to know what you are saying with the line highlighted in red? If you've got something to accuse me of, then please do so.
By "cause of good" you mean "your cause." Frankly, Grendel is the best leader I've seen come up since Cedric. When he takes on a project, it gets done, which is more than I can say about a lot of people, in Amtgard or outside of it. No, no, no...by 'cause of good,' I mean not stepping on people on the way to get there. I think you set your own standards for 'achievement' too low, as do many others in and out of amtgard. I think that about everyone, though, including myself. I'm one of those idiots that believes there's always more that can be done, and will strive for it, usually at the expense of everything else, which is one of my faults.
You fail to mention that "too much" means to the point where he is blinded by migraines. I don't know about you, but I cut my obligations well short of the point where I start suffering physical detriment.
Maybe I expected too much out of ol' Chuck. Who knows? I can't fault him for taking care of his health, but I really wish that he would have let me know prior to it getting out of hand. By his negligence, he put me in a position where I was pretty much SoL. I mean, think of it from where I stood. What would you do? Would you just roll over, and take it? 'Cause I'm not. I'm done doing that.
Hmm... don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. Everyone that comes up in the Circle has an ego; maybe the fact that Grendel can subsume his is the reason he got through and you didn't.
Ohh please...I've said many times that I've been wrong before. I KNOW that in the grand scheme of things, I'm wrong know, but I can't help but express how I'm FEELING. You obviously don't know me very well if you think that I feel I'm infallible. Sorry, son...far, FAR from it. I will speak my mind, and let you know how I feel, however.
Hah! Oh, that's a good one... Your definition is wrong. Humility is about subsuming the ego, not about admitting when you are wrong. Which, I'd like to point out, isn't something you are very good at either. For instance, at the end of this post, you're going to think that I am attacking you because Grendel was my squire. While that may fit a certain construction of the facts, the truth is that I am offering criticism in the hopes that you will re-evaluate your position. If you think that I am in the wrong, then try to change my mind, but the rhetoric offered here isn't sound enough to do so.
I did read your whole post...and I don't think that you're necessarly wrong (see above). I know that your posting what you feel, which I commend. I will try to change your opinion, but if I can not, I can not. I will respect your opinion for what it is, and how you feel, just as I would expect you to do the same. Regarding my Ego...heh...that's for sure. I know that my ego is one of my pitfalls. But I'm not really about sacrificing who I am to 'fit' in with your group. If my ego prevents me from being knighted, then so be it. I really don't care about the institution of knighthood right now, and won't support it in this Kingdom. I feel it's corrupt, and doesn't work. Again...just my feelings.
Frankly, except for you and Brennen, I can't think of anyone who hates Grendel. Of course, I don't know everyone in the Empire, but I'll bet that anyone else who says they "hate" Grendel doesn't know him. Don't let someone tell you how the apple tastes, take a bite and find out for yourself.
Well, I won't speak for anyone other than myself. I'm not sure that 'hate' is the appropriate word to use for my feelings for Grendel. Mad at and disappointed are probably more accurate. I'm mad at him because he didn't really give me a square deal regarding the last election, and has since continued to step on people to get ahead. I'm disappointed in him because I don't know if he knows that he's doing this to people.
You are burnt out, jaded and calling sour grapes. You are trying to play the political game the same way your Knight did, except that you really and truely do want everyone to like you, which is not an option by that method. You feel betrayed, which you have been, but not by whom you think. You are an intelligent and reasonable man, who has been poisoned by the vipers whispering in his ears, telling him "they all hate you" and "they are trying to hurt you" and "that should rightfully be yours." None of that is true.
Who told you this? I've made up this decision, and formulated this position after long hours of contemplation, and re-reading all of the emails and researching events that transpired beginning around last election. Perhaps I made the poor choice in bringing this to light now. Perhaps it was the straw that broke the camels back, and I couldn't take it anymore. I don't know what caused me to feel the way I do, but I'm not going to mask it, or hide it anymore.
But when your first volley is such a spiteful, mudslinging attack against the status quo, you just give ammunition to the other side. And when you fail to play the graceful loser, you lose those people who were giving you the benefit of the doubt.
If 'playing the graceful loser' means not standing up for what you believe in, and not standing up for what you're feeling, then yes, I will lose those people. But my conscious will be clear. Perhaps all of those emails I have will put your mind into my shoes a little bit.
Heh... The truth? Tell me what the truth is, and tell me why it is the truth, and maybe I'll believe it. What of this openness do you want? Do you want to know who in the circle voted which way? Ask them. You want to know why Grendel was chosen over you? Ask Kord. You want to know why Grendel quit the race? Ask him. The "truth" is availible, you just haven't looked. After all, it might mean you are wrong.
Like I already said. I am probably wrong in this, but I'm going to express my feelings none the less. And I'll make sure that I put together all of those emails sitting on my laptop at home.
That isn't the question at hand. The scenario is "get rid of everyone who is a Knight, holds an office, or wants to do either." I can tell you exactly what you get then: Dagohir. Sure, Dag has it's own virtues, but it isn't Amtgard. If that's what you want, then no problem. It's available.
Thanks...I'll be sure to look into that.
However, to answer your question, yes, those people would still be doing those things. Most of them, though, wouldn't be doing it here.
Well...why not? Just because you don't get something for your contribution doesn't mean that it's any less valuable...or at least, it shouldn't...
So a purge, then? Get rid of the dead weight, everyone who's not contributing (or rather, not contributing for the right reasons). Heh. Then every park will look like Stormkeep.
Why is it a bad thing for every park to look like Stormkeep? Getting rid of the dead weight...well...I don't think so. Though, again, in my eyes, everyone should strive to do better, all the time. It can only make you more successful in life. Understanding that other things getting in the way happens in normal. Allowing things to get into the way and not doing something about it is lazy.
Make a list of your 10 favorite Amtgarders. How many of them do you think will have to go? At least half, probably more like 3/4. You cut most of the old people, and even some of the newer folk. It's like Logan's Run, Amt-style. Of course, it all depends on how you define "the right reasons."
Again...not purging. But I see this thread is motivating people who have not ever posted, or posted very infreqently to post their feelings, so in some respects, this is working.
As for the reason that the "no one else will do it" attitude, do you know why that came about? Because certain things have to get done. Why is it the old crusty Knights that so often get saddled doing them? It goes back to the big I, Integrity. I don't want to do it, no one will be too disappointed (or maybe even notice) if it doesn't happen, but I'm going to do it because it strengthens the group. That's what the "no one else will do it" attitude is.
You're kind of missing my point, though. I'm really trying to question the 'why.' Why do these things need to be done? If someone 'has' to do something, then they're putting their time, effort, and often money into something that they do not believe in. Why? Why pain ourselves to go to such lengths? If the group dies because of apathy, then let it die. Don't continue to parade a charade in front of everyone and pretend that everything's hunky dory.
Nope. The only thing shocking is that you didn't do it Sunday night, and that's really just more of a mild suprise. You may be burning bridges, but probably not with the people you think. For my part, the bridge is still intact. For others, the bridges were probably burned a long time back.
If bridges are burned, then bridges are burned, Mark. I am not going to sit around and suppress how I feel about it any more. I didn't really know anything was happenning until Saturday night, but I still chose to attend, because at one point, Chuck was probably one of my best friends in Amtgard...even more so than many of my company. I still have some respect for him, and I do know that eventually, he will be a great Crown Knight. I think that he once was, and I hope that he will be again, now that it's official.
You have a choice ahead of you, Obie. A lot of people have come to this point, and there are a lot of paths to choose from. You can follow Killraven, give up on Amtgard and Knighthood entirely. Or you can follow Brennen, and let this gnaw at you until you become a cancerous canker, spewing venom and bile. Or you can follow Gameboy, attacking the leadership and generally just being an ass about it. Or you can do the slow fade out, like so many others. Or, you can sit back, re-evaluate in the face of new data, and maybe change your mind.
Hell...if I knew what the future held, I'd be sitting on a beach in Costa Rica right now. I will not follow any of the paths you just layed out in front of me, however. I will follow my path, and I will not suppress my feelings towards any aspect of this game.
Tal, you were right, I'm not going to take your shit anymore, and am going to call you on it for the short time that I'm still here. It is sad that I didn't have the courage to stand up and tell you this then. Empire, I apologize for not calling Tal on her shity, dirty politics beforehand.Count Orlando Sheriff of Obsidian Hills Kingdom of the Rising Winds
"A Kingdom is only as strong as the character of its citizens."
| | The topic has been locked.
Talisin
Admin
Posts: 535
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 16:59Orlando Ebasdotter wrote:Tal, you were right, I'm not going to take your shit anymore, and am going to call you on it for the short time that I'm still here. It is sad that I didn't have the courage to stand up and tell you this then. Empire, I apologize for not calling Tal on her shity, dirty politics beforehand.
Home 
He is right, there will always be situations where someone doesn't like the decisions being made or who is making them. So buy your kneepads, and play on.
