Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 16:57After some though and a couple of conversations... I have thought of a question that may be offensive or may be eye-opening like it was for me.
Do knights deserve the respect that they think they need for becoming part of the circle?
I know that it takes a lot to become a knight in this game; or, it could just take a little sucking up to the right people, but either way it goes knighthood should be earned. There are only a handful of knights that I have met that I truly believe that they deserve all the respect that I can give. There are also, more than a handful of, those knights that deserve no title except for Scumbag.
Are all knightings just popularity contests? Or are they the real thing? For those of you who are knights, what do you feel that you are doing to maintain your title? Serpents, are you still creating and teaching? Sword knights, are you still kicking ass and helping new players reach your level of fighting?
I have heard good and bad about becoming a knight, and personally I have lost all initiative to reach for that level. All I want to do for this game is be here, help others, learn, and be part of the Amtgard family. I will say that the IM is a good group. I will also say that some parts of it can be corrupt at times, and in the wrong, but it is still my family.
I realize also, that the politics in this game are not the best. I know that politics in general are pretty aweful, but I think that most have forgotten that this is a game, not a popularity contest, and not the real world where power and controll mean everything.... it's a game. On some levels it is more than a game, but when lies, manipulation and power become a commanding part of the Amtgard world... the 'game' idea is shot to hell.
I see the bad, and the ugly, and the wrong. I see the good, the hope, and the right. I am losing sight of the family, the compramise and the just however, and that, above all, is what should be here. One of the reasons I play is to escape from the real world; to go home to a chosen family and to a fair place where the people get along better and the general air is a happy one.
I want amtgard back! I don't want the knights and the office holders! I want the beating my family with sticks part and the nights around the campfire talking to a group of people and keeping the drunks out of the fire.... that's what I want.
~RiokoHowever mean your life is, meet it and live it; do not shun it and call it hard names. -Henry David Thoreau
| | The topic has been locked.
Descended
User
Posts: 265
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 17:18 ... Clap for Rioko on this one, strong point "As like an evening fog I used to lay among the knotted roots of trees. akin to the woods as they were to me. My brethren were there also; one with the world, neither master nor slave to the earth nor to the others who share our realm..."
| | The topic has been locked.
Takezu
Admin
Posts: 717
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 18:22Let me ask you this Rioko, what has caused this loss of family?It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. --Aristotle
Patriotism: The willing act of putting one's life & well being at risk for politicians who are not similarly disposed.
| | The topic has been locked.
Rioko
User
Posts: 653
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 18:24One simple word with complex and undisireable traits... PoliticsHowever mean your life is, meet it and live it; do not shun it and call it hard names. -Henry David Thoreau
| | The topic has been locked.
Takezu
Admin
Posts: 717
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 18:35Give me an example my guess is its a lot less political then you think.It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. --Aristotle
Patriotism: The willing act of putting one's life & well being at risk for politicians who are not similarly disposed.
| | The topic has been locked.
Rioko
User
Posts: 653
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 18:42Why dont you and I talk about it privetly? I was posting this for answers... not more questions really. Sorry if that sounds rude but that is what it is here for.However mean your life is, meet it and live it; do not shun it and call it hard names. -Henry David Thoreau
| | The topic has been locked.
SerpentaraDJ
User
Posts: 58
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 19:51You bring up valid points to this idea behind knighthood, and after traveling around to several different kingdoms and seeing alot of knightings to just make that statement you are going to confuse people without examples. No kingdom is perfect when they choose people for knighthood. As far as I have seen there have never been any knightings just cause someone kissed alot of rear. Different kingdoms differ in the standards they use to choose knights. An example would be a person who came from some anonymous kingdom that didn't have badass fighters is a sword knight because in there kingdom they are the badass, but there kingdom doesn't have a Lief or a Thor or any of the other great fighters in amtgard for him to compete against, do you not respect his belt if he moved here. Short point is most people who have been knighted did get knighted for some valid reason or another. It is up to a knight to keep up his credentials after they get knighted. Again after meeting alot of knights, even ones that aren't the friendliest, seem to still portray the reason they got the belt in the first place. Either by teaching others or by showing up for major tourneys just to provide the competition needed to discover new candadites for knighthood. Its especially hard to respect knights from other kingdoms that moved here when you don't know what that person did to earn it. Everyone goes through burnout and frustraion with the politics in amtgard. It comes and goes, if you don't like politics don't get involved with them. I've played in kingdoms where trust me the politics suck much worse that this kingdom has. For me its nice to actually play in a kingdom where for the most part people still love this game and try to make it fun. So go out hit people with some foam and have a good time.
Serpentara
proud to be a new import to this kingdom
| | The topic has been locked.
Cullum
User
Posts: 246
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 21:23All right, a point by point discussion of the issues you raise:
Rioko wrote: After some though and a couple of conversations... I have thought of a question that may be offensive or may be eye-opening like it was for me.
Do knights deserve the respect that they think they need for becoming part of the circle?
Basically, are Knights entitled to respect? That's the core of the question here. The answer is that yes, Knights are entitled to respect. They may not be entitled to the amount of respect that they feel they should be getting, but then again, the same is true for every one else.
I know that it takes a lot to become a knight in this game; or, it could just take a little sucking up to the right people, but either way it goes knighthood should be earned.
Heh. Knighthood is just like any other award, except that it's a hell of a lot more visible. Not only that, but getting Knighted puts you right in the big ol' crosshairs: New Sword Knights must prove themselves on the field, new Flame Knights are top of the list to run feasts, tourneys, quests and events, new Crown Knights are the first ones thrown under the office bus, and new Serpent Knights are smothered in requests for garb, equipment, shinies, and help. Once that sword drops, you don't have time to rest; you have to work even harder than you did to get there in the first place.
There are only a handful of knights that I have met that I truly believe that they deserve all the respect that I can give. There are also, more than a handful of, those knights that deserve no title except for Scumbag.
I'm curious to know who those Knights are, and why you find them worthy. Likewise, I'd like to know who falls into the other group, and why. Honestly, I have met and heard of Knights who made me feel dirty just because people who met them and then met me were going to assume we were the same.
Are all knightings just popularity contests? Or are they the real thing? For those of you who are knights, what do you feel that you are doing to maintain your title? Serpents, are you still creating and teaching? Sword knights, are you still kicking ass and helping new players reach your level of fighting?
Define "the real thing" and I can give you an answer. As for the other part of the question... At it's most basic level, yes, Knighthood is a popularity contest, just like every other award, and just like everything else in life is. The bar to entry, popularity-wise, is pretty low: One person has to think that you are worthy of Knighthood. It could be said that Crown belts in particular are a popularity contest; in order to meet the paper qualifications, one must serve in elected office. Every election is, by it's very nature, a popularity contest. Losing an election means that you were less popular with the voters than your opponent; maybe your opponent had more attractive plans, maybe you lost the populace's respect by slinging mud, maybe your key voting block forgot to go to the polls... Sorry, that's life, better luck next time.
As for continuing service, that's pretty much a gimme. True, some Knights retire from the game, but as long as they're in it, they're doing what they're good at, be it fighting, crafting, leading or serving. To be honest, most Knights are not belted at their peak; most have their greatest accomplishments after being Knighted.
I have heard good and bad about becoming a knight, and personally I have lost all initiative to reach for that level.
You're young yet, and can be forgiven for that. I don't know what you've been told, but let me add some fuel to the fire:
1) The Good * You are highly visible wherever you go * People look up to you and give you respect
2) The Bad * Because you are highly visible, everyone notices when you screw up. No one cares if I lose to a 12 year old (well, I do), but when Thor or Lief or anyone at the top of their game loses to that same 12 year old, they don't hear the end of it for months. * People expect you to be superhuman. You must win, you must run a perfect feast, you must finish your seams... Any perceived flaw is a nit that gets picked. Almost all Knights have a strong ego, because they can't survive in this game without it.
All I want to do for this game is be here, help others, learn, and be part of the Amtgard family.
This is directly contradictory to your previous statement. You have just described the essential function of a Knight. Note that it is the same as the essential function of an Amtgarder.
I will say that the IM is a good group. I will also say that some parts of it can be corrupt at times, and in the wrong, but it is still my family.
Yes, there is corruption in this game. There are embezzelments, there are dodgy votes, there is award inflation. Don't bitch about it, do something to fix it.
I realize also, that the politics in this game are not the best. I know that politics in general are pretty aweful, but I think that most have forgotten that this is a game, not a popularity contest, and not the real world where power and controll mean everything.... it's a game. On some levels it is more than a game, but when lies, manipulation and power become a commanding part of the Amtgard world... the 'game' idea is shot to hell.
Hah. You haven't seen politics, if you think that this is bad. I'm amused about the "lies, manipulation and power" line, though. Perhaps I'm just more cynical, but there have always been liars, manipulators, and power-seekers in this game, and there always will be. It's an unpleasent fact, but it's not something that can't be worked around. If your definition of "game" is too narrow to encompass that, then there can't be very many games in the world at all.
I see the bad, and the ugly, and the wrong. I see the good, the hope, and the right. I am losing sight of the family, the compramise and the just however, and that, above all, is what should be here.
Emphasis the good. Minimize the bad. Keep in mind that just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there. For the sake of argument, I'd like to ask why "the family, the compramise [sic] and the just... is what should be here"? I don't necessarily disagree; I just want to know if you have reasons or are just spouting rhetoric.
One of the reasons I play is to escape from the real world; to go home to a chosen family and to a fair place where the people get along better and the general air is a happy one.
"Friends are the family we choose." You've said it yourself; Amtgard is a family, and families disagree, bicker and fight. That doesn't mean that there is nothing left, no reason to be here; if you think it does, maybe you need to reassess the reason you came and stayed in the first place.
I want amtgard back! I don't want the knights and the office holders! I want the beating my family with sticks part and the nights around the campfire talking to a group of people and keeping the drunks out of the fire.... that's what I want.
~Rioko
Amtgard hasn't gone anywhere, and it isn't going to, either. No one is stopping you from swinging foam (Amtgard-wise, at least), and while the campfires and flaming drunks will have to wait until it gets a smidge warmer, they're not going anywhere, either. And the reason for that is simple, it's those Knights and office holders that you so disparage. They, and the people who wish to be them, are the support on which the rest of this game hangs on. Get rid of them, get rid of the organizers, the teachers, the supporters, and you have nothing but some people hitting each other with pool toys.
Discouragement with the system is not uncommon, nor is it necessarily a bad thing. You can choose to say "screw the system!" and go sulk (the Zumat method), or you can choose to try and change the system. Run for office. Vote in the Althings. Teach a newbie how to fight or sew. Sitting around bitching may make you feel better at the time, but it doesn't fix the problem. Be part of the solution.Superstar, do you think you're what they say you are?
| | The topic has been locked.
Edan
User
Posts: 358
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/03 21:32wow....50 peope have viewed this topic, and no knights have responded.
*edit* i posted like JUST AS cullum did....heh
awesome.
I dont know about the whole " more then a handful of knights are scumbags " blah blah blah...
Something you should take into consideration is that a lot of our knights have been in amtgard longer then you've been alive...at least a lot longer then you've actually known what amtgard is.
its possible that they're burned out on amtgard?
I dont know...
I know a shit ton of knights that in my opinion totally deserve their titles.
Sir Grendel MacG, the newest knight. He has fullfilled and gone above and beyond in almost EVERY position holdable in amtgard. He held the positions and he did a badass job.
Sir Jhonus...fuck dude...have you seen any of the stuff he's made?
Sir Moogie she's an awesome and super nice person, and is always there asking if people need help with anything, didnt she go down to your park and teach you guys some fighting?
Sir MHOG he's a badass, and will kick your ass on the field all day, and still have a smile, and be willing to teach you and tell you how you screwed up.
I could go on allllll night...but im not gonna, because if your judgeing the knights of amtgard by a select few, then your ignorant, and not worth responding to.
I think I agree somewhat though, that amtgard is a huge ass popularity contest.
example;
When I ran for Duke of the NH against Beefy. The only reason I won was because Kayden was my regent.
It was pretty retarded considering I had archived conversation between Beefy and in which he stated he was going to do the bare miniumum and only show up to amtgard, and that he was going to let his partner do all the work.
I won...but only by like 2 votes.
i think life is a popularity contest.
here's some advice.
get over it
or in true amtgard tradition, buy a good set of kneepads.
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 03:36Rioko wrote: Do knights deserve the respect that they think they need for becoming part of the circle?
my perspective has recently changed, but my opinions on this have not, In my opinion,
I feel that a knight should not think or feel they 'deserve' respect or 'deserve' their belt - a knight should not assume that the belt n' spurs are owed to them. Keep reading, I'll explain,
Once you start thinking that you're owed something a person might stop working to earn it, they might think they've "done the work," so now they can sit back and rest on their spurs and wait for the comps to start rolling in. (I'm not reffering to taking a break from things, everyone needs some downtime and rest for balance.) I like to think the spurs are pointy for a reason, makes it hard to rest on em'
In 'knighthood' as I invision it, a knight is on a continuing path of making better choices, understanding themselves better, improving themselves, making the place a little better than they found it, and, importantly - they are responsible for helping others to see the potential for greatness within themselves and motivating them to labor for the things they want in life.
I am willing to help those who are willing to help themselves, I think it's that way for most folks, if you're a tattoo master and someone wants to learn from you : First, you want to make sure they have the desire and drive to learn. You want to ensure they won't give up after a day or a week. You want to be proud to give your knowledge and technique to your apprentice/student. You want to see them surpass your skill and ability someday. You want both yourself and your student to grow and you want to challenge each other to higher acomplishment and ability. That relationship is about respect.
As a student to Cruz when he began teaching me chain maille I gave him respect as a teacher, he was choosing to teach me what he knew, he was willing to show me techniques and things he had learned the hard way so as to save me from the same mistakes, The least I could do was give him the respect to learn something, I didn't argue with the way he made his maille, I was there to learn.
When Sir Thor teaches a single sword class I give him respect by listening, asking questions to better my understanding, and putting in the work to improve myself. If someone shows up to class and sorta pays attention and chats with their buddy throughout the class and doesn't put in any effort to practice or learn that's a disrespect to the teacher.
I think a knight is there to forge their own path, and encourage and help others to do the same If respect comes from doing the right thing and helping others then I'll certainly welcome it, but I don't 'expect' I should be granted anything.
Rioko wrote: I know that it takes a lot to become a knight in this game; or, it could just take a little sucking up to the right people, but either way it goes knighthood should be earned.
I agree that it takes allot of work to become a knight, I disagree with the sucking up, in fact, becoming more honest and direct with yourself and others is something I consider a virtue of knighthood.
I know that no one is completely perfect all the time, let alone myself, for example, instead of being totally direct with Obie and telling him no I wouldn't run with him, that I couldn't handle being in office, moving, and getting married all in one month, instead of being direct and completely honest with him right then and there, I was weak and told him I'd run with him, he was my friend and I wanted to help and I believed we could do good things. As things got closer to the wire I realized I wasn't running for office for the right reasons, I wasn't running for myself, I was running for Obie, my heart wasn't there, and I disagreed with some things that went down, I finally had to be direct, it was way too late and I regret having not been more honest right at the start with Obie. All I can do is accept responsibility for my actions and do better.
Rioko wrote: There are only a handful of knights that I have met that I truly believe that they deserve all the respect that I can give. There are also, more than a handful of, those knights that deserve no title except for Scumbag.
I'm glad you've had the chance to meet that handful of knights you respect and I hope that handful grows. I've met some knights I thought weren't all that worthy as well, but hey, all we can really do is use those examples you don't like as reminders of what you won't do, and the good examples as goals to strive for ourselves.
Rioko wrote: Are all knightings just popularity contests? Or are they the real thing? For those of you who are knights, what do you feel that you are doing to maintain your title?
I don't know about the popularity contest aspect, opinions differ. I don't believe there has ever been a knight made in the IM that the Circle of Knights or populace was in a majority vote against them being knighted. I know there have been candidates not knighted when the majority of the circle and populace was for them being knighted.
I haven't had this responsibility for very long, but right now I'm treasurer of the NH and I'm helping Cruz to understand how the ORK works, and I'm here if he has questions, though I'm making sure he does the work, as it's the only way he'll learn.
Rioko wrote: I have heard good and bad about becoming a knight, and personally I have lost all initiative to reach for that level. All I want to do for this game is be here, help others, learn, and be part of the Amtgard family. I will say that the IM is a good group. I will also say that some parts of it can be corrupt at times, and in the wrong, but it is still my family.
well I think that's what most knights want (be here, help others, and be part of the Amtgard family) Cullum already answered you on this in pretty much the same way I feel.
Rioko wrote: I realize also, that the politics in this game are not the best. I know that politics in general are pretty aweful, but I think that most have forgotten that this is a game, not a popularity contest, and not the real world where power and controll mean everything.... it's a game. On some levels it is more than a game, but when lies, manipulation and power become a commanding part of the Amtgard world... the 'game' idea is shot to hell.
the right sort of politics are good. Healthy competition between parties for leadership and control, it's every election.
If you have that conflict between groups, with each group wanting to do the best job, you hopefully get the best person for the job. challenges and conflict breed growth. against difficult situations we can achieve great things when unchallenged it's easy to slide by with the bare minimum, I think we've all had teachers that challenged us, that spiked our interest and we found ourselves doing extra homework or whatever for that class, there are other classes where we were satisfied with just barely passing
It's human nature to want better lives and to experience more, if all we ever aspired to was a life with food and shelter we'd be sitting in caves consuming the most easily obtainable sustenance, luckily that's not the case.
some don't act in ways we would act, again, the variety of people! some folks may pay off senators to vote yes on a piece of legislation that restricts persons under the age of 21 from buying ammunition for firearms (whether you see that as positive or negative) some folks may pay off senators to keep using limited fossil fuels and delay the mass use of alternate fuels in U.S. (whether you see that as positive or negative) some folks refuse to accept pay offs and act with what they believe to be the best interest of the people in mind.
If you don't like what you see or disagree with what you hear, I suggest you go directly to the source of your frustration or questions,
Speak to both sides of whatever the issue is and make your own decision.
I also suggest you make a change! You don't like it, do something about it. The only thing you have control over and responsibility for is your own actions and thoughts. Better become the person you can live with being.
Rioko wrote: I see the bad, and the ugly, and the wrong. I see the good, the hope, and the right. I am losing sight of the family, the compramise and the just however, and that, above all, is what should be here.
not to go off on too much more of a tangent, but.. : )
A knight is there to lead by example, they should strive to better themself and encourage and support others to overcome obstacles and improve themselves as well. Anyone can choose to lead and become a good example. Knight, non knight, the choice is the individuals to make.
You "see the good, the hope, and the right," you "see the bad, and the ugly, and the wrong," ? Then it looks like it's time for you to decide what you're going to stand for
We all have choices to make throughout our whole lives, should I take responsibility for my bad grades and study more, or should I blame my teacher for giving me poor marks on my tests?
should I work hard to accomplish what I want in my life, or should I attack the people around me that choose to take their life into their own control and fight for what they want.
should I express myself, enforce my boundaries of comfort, and stand up for myself, or should I lay down and let people walk on me and bottle up my feelings?
there are some decisions that are harder to make than others, person A won't always agree with what person B does in whatever situation.
but hey, making your own choices is your greatest freedom. You get to decide!
You don't have to have a white belt to be a knight. You choose to start that path for yourself, or you do not.
A knight is not made a knight by the circle of knights or the Emperor, if that was the case you could go out and knight every single member of Amtgard the world over and create an "Amt-Utopia," a world where everyone was a knight and everyone had an agreed upon set of the "Way things should be," and the way that knights should react to every situation, and everyone would follow the rules, and everyone would have fun and be best friends and get along with everyone else.
You know why there's so many movies out there like The Matrix and Equilibrium? Many folks have pondered what a Utopia would be like, and they saw it as a cage of banality, enslavement, a world with no choices.
I'd rather make mistakes and have the ability learn from those mistakes and to choose and make decisions for myself than to live a life of perfect decisions based on/chosen by someone else.
Each individual chooses whether or not they will walk that path of doing what's right for themselves.
Rioko wrote: One of the reasons I play is to escape from the real world; to go home to a chosen family and to a fair place where the people get along better and the general air is a happy one.
I hear ya there, I think most people want a safe relaxing environment, some where they can have a break from the stresses of the parts of their life they are unsatisfied with..
I'm reminded of some movie wisdom : (as cliche as it may be)
"All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I f*ck like you wanna f*ck, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not." - Tyler Durden, Fight Club
In Fight Club the main character is not happy with the way his life has turned out, he goes insane, and suffers from dissociative disorder and makes another person inside himself, Tyler Durden, the persona he wishes he was, he has the cool persona name, where's the cool clothes/garb and can kick ass like a white Bruce Lee, Fantasy and escape from reality can happen in Amtgard, probably not to this extant, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of amtgarders were dissatisfied with their lives and were searching for satisfaction through escaping reality, through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole into the world of Amtgard I have to admit I've used Amtgard to relieve stress and as an escape before, imagined what it would be like to roam about and go a-viking, thought how cool it was when I plugged people with arrows, getting excited when you win a good fight, wearing cool garb and swinging fun noodle around pretending it was swords.
but in the end, people won't always get along with each other, it's a diverse world with diverse folks, and sometimes people clash with each other, even in our Amtgard escape we're not free from conflicts. There is no escape from the real world, there is only the here and now, and what you choose to do with the short time you have.
Rioko wrote: I want amtgard back! I don't want the knights and the office holders! I want the beating my family with sticks part and the nights around the campfire talking to a group of people and keeping the drunks out of the fire.... that's what I want. ~Rioko
this seemed important to quote too..
"That's the trouble with the world, Sarah darlin'. People got different ideas concernin' what they want out of life." - Day Of The Dead
That's the great thing about Amtgard, you can make it and take from it whatever you want. If all you want is campfires, foam fighting, and social hour then you can have that. You choose your own level of involvement. If someone says "oh Rioko, did you hear about this! Apparently I heard from someone who heard it from someone that so and so got blah blah blah" then you can choose to blow it off, tell the person "not interested" or go directly to the person the rumor or whatever is about and ask them your questions,
find out for yourself from first person sources, then make your own decision. or, if you have take offense or have issue with someone, talk to them directly, go to that person and express your views, don't take the easy/shady way out and bitch about them to your friends, approach them directly and tell them what's on your mind.
but anyway, you'll only get resolution through direct communication, take care I hope you got some answers.
catch ya later
Post edited by: grendel, at: 2005/10/04 03:50Dragoon Strike First. Strike Hard. No Mercy. Hús Vetra Skald IMU
| | The topic has been locked.
Axys
Visitor
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 10:00 an actual real topic in Crimson Dawn's list!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think I am going to faint!!!!
Whereas I can see the reasons and conclusions that started this thread, I want to throw my hat into this mini-arena. All you get out of Amtgard is what you individually put into it. If all you want to do is go out to the park, swing foam & talk smak... then that is all you will do. If you want to make Amtgard grow positively and make that specific effort for change, then you will cause it. If you only see the 'negatives' and become jaded towards the game, then you are only becoming part of the problem & not part of the solution.
My first weekend of Amt, I got the opportunity to meet alot of ppl, I was lucky. It was the midreign of Grendel & DTM's reign. While playing in DM, I got to meet Cullum, Grendel & DTM... and then making the trip up to the NH on that Sunday, I got to meet a grip of regular Amt'ers and s'more knights.
My level of respect of each individual person in Amtgard is not based on what color their belt is... but rather, the emotion and intensity with which they put towards Amtgard in all of it's facets. In my eyes, having a white belt only tattoos a bulls-eye on your back, because as a knight of whatever category everyone looks at what you do, rips it apart, turns it upside-down and shakes it vigorously to see what can and will fall out. I have yet to see someone who is a knight, do anything to contradict their earning of it. But what you have to also remember is that whether or not there are spurs on their boots, everyone deserves a measure of respect from the get-go, whether that respect waxes or wanes should only be dependant upon what that person does, not what you've been told by others. That's their own opinion... & we all know the line about opinions.
Now I have only been swinging foam for a year and a half... (funny isn't it, to myself and alot of other ppl, it seems longer) and I have been physically present to witness a trio of knightings (I missed this Rakis' knightings assisting a sprained ankle). And I have yet to see any of these that I would disagree with. No, I haven't seen everything that Jhonus has made, I haven't seen Jab connect with every shot he's thrown, & I haven't been there for all of Grendel's reigns at whatever post... but in my eyes, each of these knights are worthy of the titles and awards that they have been given. As to other knights of the IM, we should count ourselves lucky to be in such a widely regarded kingdom with all of the talent that they represent. Sure, you may not like this or that individual person... but that's the PERSON, not their station or title.
I, myself, am a person that most people love to hate... I'm loud-mouthed, opinionated, arrogant, and an all-around asshole. Even to some, I have been dubbed 'The Pig of All Men', but what others think of me I could care less. I push and play Amtgard to the hilt. I am only a small part of a whole. I am a person just like every knight, every monarch, every first-week raider. Sure, some situations may not be to everyone's liking... but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Before you become opposed to anything, take a hard, long look at it. See if your ire is well-deserved or tainted by other outside influences... and check your emotions at the door along with your coat.
~ I got checked in as a visitor?!?!?!? WTF? ~
Post edited by: Axys, at: 2005/10/04 10:01
| | The topic has been locked.
Korderellin
Visitor
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 10:09Rioko wrote: Do knights deserve the respect that they think they need for becoming part of the circle?
You know, I look around our knights circle, and I honestly don't see many people who think they deserve respect just because they are a knight. Many of them, in fact, continue to strive to earn that respect; in many instances, because they see themselves as a visible example to others, they strive harder once the white belt has been placed around their waist. I know that it takes a lot to become a knight in this game; or, it could just take a little sucking up to the right people, but either way it goes knighthood should be earned.
I'm trying hard to figure out where such a bitter statement could come from, and I am at a bit of a loss as to the source. I don't see how someone could come to this conclusion without having a particular subject in mind who has colored their view of knighthood. While I realize it would not be proper to start pointing fingers here in this forum, I would be interested in finding out what exactly it was that made you have such a shoddy opinion of this games highest honor. There are only a handful of knights that I have met that I truly believe that they deserve all the respect that I can give. There are also, more than a handful of, those knights that deserve no title except for Scumbag.
Again, to whom are you referring? Or, if you don't feel like pointing fingers, who do you feel really deserves that respect? Because right now, every knight who reads this is going to assume they are in the latter category, and if you do actually have some respect for these knights, then making them feel like you think they're worthless is not a terribly good way to show it. Are all knightings just popularity contests? Or are they the real thing? For those of you who are knights, what do you feel that you are doing to maintain your title? Serpents, are you still creating and teaching? Sword knights, are you still kicking ass and helping new players reach your level of fighting?
That's the hope, at any rate. I believe Cullum put it right: Yes, Knightings are popularity contests, in a manner. A person who portrays knightly virtues is in almost every case I know someone who is liked and respected by their peers, and thus is going to be popular. Sure, a belt is in a way a recognition of that popularity. But to trivialize it and categorize it as mere pageantry is to completely devalue the contribution that said individual has made to the game. As you haven't been here long, you probably haven't seen a lot of the stuff that these people have done. Every single one of them has made a huge contribution in their respective area. No monarch in their right mind is going to lightly bestow Amtgard's highest honor on one of their friends; the people who hold those belts have all earned them in some fashion. I have heard good and bad about becoming a knight, and personally I have lost all initiative to reach for that level. All I want to do for this game is be here, help others, learn, and be part of the Amtgard family. I will say that the IM is a good group. I will also say that some parts of it can be corrupt at times, and in the wrong, but it is still my family.
For most of my 10 years in the game, I felt the exact same way. Knighthood looked more to me like an "old boys club" than a high honor; it looked as if a number of people who had been "grandfathered" in when it wasn't too difficult to attain those goals were picking and choosing which of their friends they wanted in the club. And you know, as sad as it is to say it, there are a few members of the circle who are exactly like that. It is easy to view knighthood as such when you have little to no experience with knights; I would highly suggest that you try and get to know some of them better and see what type of person they really are before making judgments about their character merely because of the color belt they wear. I realize also, that the politics in this game are not the best. I know that politics in general are pretty aweful, but I think that most have forgotten that this is a game, not a popularity contest, and not the real world where power and controll mean everything.... it's a game. On some levels it is more than a game, but when lies, manipulation and power become a commanding part of the Amtgard world... the 'game' idea is shot to hell.
Geez... Generally, it takes people at least five or six years before they become this burned out and jaded by this game, and that is usually because of immersion on the Imperial scale. I would be extremely interested in hearing what at the shire level has caused such an extreme level of bitterness. Feel free to e-mail me or PM me regarding this issue. I see the bad, and the ugly, and the wrong. I see the good, the hope, and the right. I am losing sight of the family, the compramise and the just however, and that, above all, is what should be here.
That hasn't left. The game hasn't really changed much since you got in; you've just started focusing on different aspects. One of the reasons I play is to escape from the real world; to go home to a chosen family and to a fair place where the people get along better and the general air is a happy one.
So what made you feel that this has changed? I want amtgard back! I don't want the knights and the office holders! I want the beating my family with sticks part and the nights around the campfire talking to a group of people and keeping the drunks out of the fire.... that's what I want.
~Rioko You may not want them, but in order for this game to run, they are a necessity. We need people who are willing to step up to the plate and organize things. In order to have an event where you can sit around the campfire talking to a group of people and keeping the drunks out of the fire, you need people to run the event. Look at the people who stepped up and did Rakis: Most of them were knights. Some fo the primary people who are stepping up to do so next year are knights. No one else was willing to do it. THAT is what causes us to have respect for knights; they are the ones who are willing to step up and do the job when no one else will.
| | The topic has been locked.
Rewth
Admin
Posts: 1526
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 11:06Korderellin wrote: There are only a handful of knights that I have met that I truly believe that they deserve all the respect that I can give. There are also, more than a handful of, those knights that deserve no title except for Scumbag.
Again, to whom are you referring? Or, if you don't feel like pointing fingers, who do you feel really deserves that respect? Because right now, every knight who reads this is going to assume they are in the latter category, and if you do actually have some respect for these knights, then making them feel like you think they're worthless is not a terribly good way to show it.
trying to watch this develop from the sidelines. too much stuff in real life right now to get overly involved. but i wanted to comment on this...
i think it may actually be healthy for the knights to be unsure of which category they fall into.
if someone were to come forward and say "the following knights are cool: blah blah blah. the following knights are teh suxxorz: blah blah blah" i think it might have an undesired effect. to begin with the knights on the suck list would get overly defensive and begin to try and justify themselves. second, the knights on the cool list would relax, safe and content in thier knowledge that everyone loves them and the world is a happy place.
problem is... both situations aren't good for the empire. leaving it unknown and unspoken forces the knights to think to themselves which list they might fall on. the fact that they are unsure would like they encourage them to do more for the club in order to ensure that they fall into the cool list next time. so the knights on the suck list to somethingto improve thier standing wit hthe general populace, the knights on the cool list do more to improve thier standing with them as well. in the end, amtgard as a whole wins."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
| | The topic has been locked.
Orlando Ebasdotter
User
Posts: 672
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 12:35Korderellin wrote: I'm trying hard to figure out where such a bitter statement could come from, and I am at a bit of a loss as to the source. I don't see how someone could come to this conclusion without having a particular subject in mind who has colored their view of knighthood. While I realize it would not be proper to start pointing fingers here in this forum, I would be interested in finding out what exactly it was that made you have such a shoddy opinion of this games highest honor.
Umm...that'd be me, I'm pretty sure. I'm sure you knew that already, you're just trying to be PC. Well...I'm over the PC bullshit, as Tal put it so eloquently, in our email conversations a few months ago. It's no secret that I'm disgusted with the way the election went, slightly by Grendel's eventual actions, but more so from the pressure put on him by you, Tal, and Meddy.
As Rio was my MAA, I'm sure that she knew how I really felt about the election. Perhaps after she heard that the guy that dropped out of the last election, you know, the one you 'won' 6 votes to 3 votes, got knighted for service in office, she decided that she didn't really think he was worthy, despite past contributions.
My opinion on the matter, and I'm not afraid to hide it anymore (and it feels so liberating), is that Grendel was worthy...at one point...when he was everyone's friend. He could mingle in any social circle he wanted to, from Belator, to the Rogues, to the Wolves, to Wakagashira, etc. Everyone considered him friend and ally. This was the case up until about a year ago, when he started shunning certain people, using certain groups for his personal advantage, stepping on people to get ahead, becoming consumed with power, and making sure that he was the one in charge, even if his name wasn't on the job.
Well, he's burned a lot of bridges with myself and some of the other 'older' members of the NH (why you don't see them anymore, anyway), with some members of Wakagashira, and his former company, the MacGregors. Why would someone do something like that, you ask? My opinion is that these groups may make him look bad to some members of the CoK. Consciously, or unconsciously, Grendel has been stepping on people, and making himself look better and better to those members of the Circle and to his social circle, which happen to be the majority of knights and monarch right now...aka, the people making the decisions. Belt hungry? Heh...I think you can ask your own questions of Grendel to figure this out.
No monarch in their right mind is going to lightly bestow Amtgard's highest honor on one of their friends; the people who hold those belts have all earned them in some fashion.
Lightly...maybe, maybe not. You just did bestow it to your friend. That, in and of itself looks bad to me, and will always shed questionable light onto Grendel's Knighting. As far as determining lightly or not, I have to say that most of his achievements are unquestionable. He's served well in most offices. All of them except Prov. PM, I feel he did a wonderful job with. But the virtues that he currently possesses, in my eyes, seem to be a fallacy of those listed by his own Knight, Cullum, in the PLQ topic. Let's look at them for a minute, and compare what I feel to what his knight listed, and see how he stacks up:
[li]Integrity- I'm sorry, but hardly. Perhaps integrety to the right people, but integrity as a person...no. Integrity requires honesty. When you lie to people, and are otherwise two-faced about things, then you have no honor, and you have no integrity. [li]Leadership- Undoubtedly. I have no dispute that Grendel is a leader. He may not use it for the cause of good, but lead, he does. [li]Industry- Again no problem. Grendel is a very busy body...until it stresses him out too much. [li]Pride- Hmm...I never really thought him as being prideful, until this past year, when it has been severely at the detriment of: [li]Humility- I notice that he shares a deficiency in this virtue with you Kord, and you too Medryn. Always having to be right is not a virtue of knighthood...it's a virtue of hypocracy. [li]Excellence- Ehh...I have never felt that Grendel 'excelled' as a leader. He doesn't have the follow through to get a project done to its rightful completion. Lots of ideas...little ability to plan and get it done. [li]Imperial Outlook- No problem here, either. I think that Grendel is known (liked or hated) throughout the Empire. [li]Respectability- Well...if you don't know how I feel about this one already, you're dumber than I thought.
It is easy to view knighthood as such when you have little to no experience with knights; I would highly suggest that you try and get to know some of them better and see what type of person they really are before making judgments about their character merely because of the color belt they wear.
Well...what about me, then, all knowing Emperor? I have more experience with Knights than most, and feel exactly the same way. I know what kind of apathetic people they are, and like it or not, it HAS turned into the ol' boys club, because the majority of the people making the decisions are all of the same social circle. You may not have the same ideas all the time, but to say that in general your ideals are different is a lie. If they were different on a fundamental level, you would not be social with these people in the first place. (This is meant to spur the rest of you knights to get off your asses and do something about it)
Geez... Generally, it takes people at least five or six years before they become this burned out and jaded by this game, and that is usually because of immersion on the Imperial scale. I would be extremely interested in hearing what at the shire level has caused such an extreme level of bitterness. Feel free to e-mail me or PM me regarding this issue.
Why should it be this way? Why should it make any difference wether someone is jaded from what they see on the shire scale, versus what they see on the imperial scale? Is it not the same game? If not, then why? Aren't we all out here to just have fun? Or is there an alterior motive? Should we not hold people to the same standards at any level of province in this game? Should people not follow the rules that we have put in play?
That hasn't left. The game hasn't really changed much since you got in; you've just started focusing on different aspects.
Perhaps the 'truth' has become her focus? Instead of smoke and mirrors, why not just be open about everything? We would all be able to make much better ammends if it were.
You may not want them, but in order for this game to run, they are a necessity. Are they? Will these people not still do the work that needs to be done, without a strip of leather? Is that not one of the virtues of Knighthood?
THAT is what causes us to have respect for knights; they are the ones who are willing to step up and do the job when no one else will. Guilting someone into doing something brings nothing but resentment, even if it's a friend. We're way too apathetic as a Kingdom. If you need to be told to do something, or will only do it if 'no one else will,' then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Perhaps everyone, myself included, should take a step back, and really evaluate why you play this game. If it's for the wrong reasons, then what the fuck are you still doing here? I'm sure that the game will get along just fine without the attitude. I imagine that it'll actually be a much better place to play. Drop the attitude where you have to control everything, and then blame it on 'no one else will do it.' Just GO! We'll all get along fine.
Many of you are probably shocked that I'm saying all this. Well...I may be burning a lot of bridges as I respond, but I can't help the way I truly feel. I wish that more of us wouldn't try to use smoke and mirrors, and just spit out how their feeling. Trust me, it's very liberating, and while it may make some enemies, it lets everyone else know exactly how you're feeling, so they can understand where you're coming from.Count Orlando Sheriff of Obsidian Hills Kingdom of the Rising Winds
"A Kingdom is only as strong as the character of its citizens."
| | The topic has been locked.
Uncle Willie
User
Posts: 40
Re:Knighthood and the IM - 2005/10/04 14:01Says Kord:
No monarch in their right mind is going to lightly bestow Amtgard's highest honor on one of their friends; the people who hold those belts have all earned them in some fashion.
Says Obie: Lightly...maybe, maybe not. You just did bestow it to your friend. That, in and of itself looks bad to me, and will always shed questionable light onto Grendel's Knighting.
Says Willie:
Yeah, this would be a much better game if the Monarch didn't like the people who do the most to support the game. It is kinda silly that the people runing the club are making friends with the club's strongest supporters, doesn't it?
Home 
...
an actual real topic in Crimson Dawn's list!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think I am going to faint!!!! 
I got checked in as a visitor?!?!?!? WTF? 
