Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/10 15:47Proposal 5:
Remove Appendix B from the Iron Mountains corpora in its entirety, and re-label all subsequent sections accordingly. Add the following section to the corpora:
5.A.v. It is the Emperor/Empress’ responsibility to determine any in-game punishments for mundanely illegal offenses committed by members of Amtgard at or in connection with any Amtgard-related activities. Possible punishments may include banning from the premises or participation in Amtgard activities, stripping of titles, or other punishments at the discretion of the monarch. If mundane interaction is required, such as contacting the appropriate law enforcement officials, any decisions the Emperor/Empress makes shall be under the purview of the Iron Mountains Board of Directors. Any decisions of the monarch regarding in-game punishment may be overturned by a 2/3 vote of the Imperial Althing.
Add the following to section I.6 of Appendix A:
I.6. The B.O.D. will work with the Emperor and the Imperial Prime Minister in areas where the group has dealings with various government agencies and their institutions and laws. It is the responsibility of the Board of Directors to coordinate with all law enforcement agencies in the event of mundanely illegal offenses committed by members of Amtgard at or in connection with any Amtgard-related activities. Note that the Emperor and Prime Minister are considered members of the Board.
Rationale: Appendix B of the corpora is too limiting in how it requires the monarchy to handle criminal or mundanely illegal offenses. It does not take into account the nuances of a particular situation, and instead binds the hands of the individuals who are tasked with its implementation. However, it is important to ensure that the corpora gives some guidance as to how to handle such illegal activity. This proposal aims to remove the restrictive sections and replace them within the body of the corpora with a less restrictive set of rules that still empower the monarchy to act as necessary to handle any such situations.Kord
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Talisin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/10 18:575.A.v. It is the Emperor/Empress’ responsibility to determine any in-game punishments for mundanely illegal offenses committed by members of Amtgard at or in connection with any Amtgard-related activities. Possible punishments may include banning from the premises or participation in Amtgard activities, stripping of titles, or other punishments at the discretion of the monarch.
Ok, no problems thus far.
If mundane interaction is required, such as contacting the appropriate law enforcement officials, any decisions the Emperor/Empress makes shall be under the purview of the Iron Mountains Board of Directors.
Stating that the monarch's decisions (which decisions? all of them? including what in-game punishment to level?) in these circumstances are under the purview (authority, scope, responsibility) of the BOD leaves it too open to interpretation. Does the BOD have to approve the monarch's decision? Does he/she have to run it by them first? Can the BOD veto the monarch's decision? Can the BOD tell the monarch what punishment to give? What's the intent here as far as practical application?
If it is the intent that the BOD can control in some fashion what in-game punishment is enforced, then this last part leaves a question:
Any decisions of the monarch regarding in-game punishment may be overturned by a 2/3 vote of the Imperial Althing.
What about decisions made by the BOD? Or is the monarch going to get the credit/blame even if his decision was vetoed and a different punishment decided upon by the BOD? The wording leaves too many questions (and is entirely dependent upon your reading of the preceding section).
And if the intent IS to give the BOD control over in-game punishments, then it's really in direct contradiction to the rationale, which says that the point is to empower the monarchy to make decisions (as well as the rule that the BOD has no jurisdiction over internal group functions. Yes, there are obviously going to be issues that overlap mundania/in game concerns, but this item seems entirely too open to interpretation).
And, just to be picky: Note that the Emperor and Prime Minister are considered members of the Board.
This is unnecessary and a little misleading in tone. It specifies just up the page a bit (1.2.2.1 in the version I'm looking at, which I think is the most recent one) that the Monarch and PM hold seats on the board during their terms in office (and states it again in the officer descriptions). It really doesn't need to be said again here. (And saying that they are "Considered" members is softballing it. They "hold seats", they aren't "considered members". Maybe I'm being too critical, but it feels like the tone here singles them out in a way that implies that they're somehow less than "real members", which I thought we were trying to get away from. In any case, it's repetitive. We're never going to shorten this thing up if we keep repeating information that's already been stated.)Tal
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Korderellin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/10 20:36Talisin wrote: If mundane interaction is required, such as contacting the appropriate law enforcement officials, any decisions the Emperor/Empress makes shall be under the purview of the Iron Mountains Board of Directors.
Stating that the monarch's decisions (which decisions? all of them? including what in-game punishment to level?) in these circumstances are under the purview (authority, scope, responsibility) of the BOD leaves it too open to interpretation. Does the BOD have to approve the monarch's decision? Does he/she have to run it by them first? Can the BOD veto the monarch's decision? Can the BOD tell the monarch what punishment to give? What's the intent here as far as practical application?
I believe the intention was for the decisions with regard to mundane interactions (e.g. contacting the authorities, etc.) were the domain of the BOD. I don't believe the BOD was intended to have any authority whatsoever over in-game activities. Although I can see how the wording would make this interpretable as meaning the BOD now has oversight in the event that punishment requires mundane interaction. I'm not sure how this would play out from a legal standpoint in the event that such was inacted. Can one of our resident legal experts weigh in on whether this would basically give the BOD authority over in-game functions due to the wording, or whether this is understood to only be oversight of the mundane interactions?
And, just to be picky: Note that the Emperor and Prime Minister are considered members of the Board.
This is unnecessary and a little misleading in tone. It specifies just up the page a bit (1.2.2.1 in the version I'm looking at, which I think is the most recent one) that the Monarch and PM hold seats on the board during their terms in office (and states it again in the officer descriptions). It really doesn't need to be said again here. (And saying that they are "Considered" members is softballing it. They "hold seats", they aren't "considered members". Maybe I'm being too critical, but it feels like the tone here singles them out in a way that implies that they're somehow less than "real members", which I thought we were trying to get away from. In any case, it's repetitive. We're never going to shorten this thing up if we keep repeating information that's already been stated.)
Understandable; although I don't think this really changes the function of the proposal itself, I agree that adding extra wording doesn't really help in simplifying the process (which SHOULD be a primary goal). In its current format, however, I don't know how much simplification we can really do; it's primarily the constant repetition that is problematic, and that more or less would necessitate a complete re-write.Kord
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Talisin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/10 21:13I believe the intention was for the decisions with regard to mundane interactions (e.g. contacting the authorities, etc.) were the domain of the BOD.
Yikes. That right there is tricky enough. We don't want to give people the impression that the only time mundane authorities should be called is after the committee meets and makes a decision. We can't tell Joe Schmoe that he can't call the cops on the spot if he witnesses a stabbing, even if Joe Schmoe happens to be the monarch. (I realize that this probably isn't the intent either, but the wording needs to be very clear unless we want to get even deeper into hot water.)
I think this whole proposal needs a serious rewrite.
Post edited by: Talisin, at: 2010/05/10 21:13Tal
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Korderellin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/10 21:39Talisin wrote: I believe the intention was for the decisions with regard to mundane interactions (e.g. contacting the authorities, etc.) were the domain of the BOD.
Yikes. That right there is tricky enough. We don't want to give people the impression that the only time mundane authorities should be called is after the committee meets and makes a decision. We can't tell Joe Schmoe that he can't call the cops on the spot if he witnesses a stabbing, even if Joe Schmoe happens to be the monarch. (I realize that this probably isn't the intent either, but the wording needs to be very clear unless we want to get even deeper into hot water.)
I think this whole proposal needs a serious rewrite.<br><br>Post edited by: Talisin, at: 2010/05/10 21:13
Hmm. It would seem that the ambiguity would mean that it was the BOD's responsibility, not that the committee must explicitly meet in order to determine the appropriate course of action. How the BOD must handle such an issue is never explicitly discussed. I do agree that this should be much more explicitly stated in the proposal. I think this might be where the reference to the Monarch and PM being considered members of the BOD comes into play, however. Would they then be able to handle the situation independently by virtue of them being members of the Board, or would that still require the entire board to come together to implement any mundane punishments? It does leave a bit too much to interpretation.
Overall, I like the idea of the proposal, in that it gives more breathing room to the monarch as far as determining punishment, and does not tie us to a particular course of action that may or may not be appropriate for a given instance. As it stands now, I agree that it is easily interpreted incorrectly, and should probably be reconsidered before being voted upon.Kord
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Hannibal Finvarra
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/11 00:35So Kord does have the right idea about the Monarch dealing with all In-game actions and the BOD dealing with all out of game actions. The intent was so any member of the BOD could call the cops(or the like) if they saw fit at that time.
I feel removing App B is a great step to getting rid of a pile of crap in our corpora, but Tal does have some strong points and I'll take this over App B at this point in time.
Hannibal
Post edited by: Hannibal Finvarra, at: 2010/05/11 00:36
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Talisin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/11 01:11Hannibal Finvarra wrote: So Kord does have the right idea about the Monarch dealing with all In-game actions and the BOD dealing with all out of game actions. The intent was so any member of the BOD could call the cops(or the like) if they saw fit at that time.
They already have that ability. So does every person living in this country. You just stick out one finger and push. If we feel the need to state in the Corpora that certain people can call the cops, we have much bigger issues- like forgetting that we don't live in a different universe from the "mundanes".
I feel removing App B is a great step to getting rid of a pile of crap in our corpora, but Tal does have some strong points and I'll take this over App B at this point in time.
Replacing one steaming pile of crap with another steaming pile of crap is not the answer. Scrapping Appendix B in favor of a proposal that seems to imply that Amtgard has the right to tell people who can call the cops is ridiculous.Tal
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Hannibal Finvarra
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/11 01:36I'm not saying this is the end all proposal but as it stands it's the Monarchs job to call, even though, yes you are right, anyone can call. Now how that got into the corpora I don't know, but why is it an issue for this proposal? We are just adding 6 people to it.
My big problem with App B is as it reads, you must:
• Banned from all Amtgard battlegame, tourney and quest participation for a minimum duration of 1 (one) year, to permanently (subject to Monarch’s discretion and Althing vote), • Immediately requested to leave the site of the Event, • Stripped immediately of all titles of Nobility and Knighthood belts, permanently, • Subject to an immediate call to the mundane law enforcement officials (police or sheriff ).
Now how many Monarchs have immediately requested a minor who has been drinking leave site, or stripped them of there titles?
App B is way to cut and dry, it's an if then math formula and has no room for a case to case basis... Now this proposal may not be the best worded one, but I see it as a lesser of 2 evils.
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Talisin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/11 02:14Hannibal Finvarra wrote: I'm not saying this is the end all proposal but as it stands it's the Monarchs job to call, even though, yes you are right, anyone can call. Now how that got into the corpora I don't know, but why is it an issue for this proposal? We are just adding 6 people to it.
It's not the monarch's job to call. Appendix B doesn't say that. It says that lawbreakers are subject to being reported to mundane authorities, but it doesn't specify who does the calling... because that would be dumb. What if the monarch was stabbed and incapable of calling? Too bad, the guy gets away with it?
Sorry, this proposal pretty much stinks. I'm in favor of putting something better than Appendix B in place, but poorly worded proposals that can be easily abused are not the answer. We should be improving on flaws, not making up all new ones to replace the old.Tal
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Grendel
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/11 13:46Talisin wrote: Sorry, this proposal pretty much stinks. I'm in favor of putting something better than Appendix B in place, but poorly worded proposals that can be easily abused are not the answer. We should be improving on flaws, not making up all new ones to replace the old.
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Korderellin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/11 14:47Talisin wrote: It's not the monarch's job to call. Appendix B doesn't say that. It says that lawbreakers are subject to being reported to mundane authorities, but it doesn't specify who does the calling... because that would be dumb. What if the monarch was stabbed and incapable of calling? Too bad, the guy gets away with it?
Sorry, this proposal pretty much stinks. I'm in favor of putting something better than Appendix B in place, but poorly worded proposals that can be easily abused are not the answer. We should be improving on flaws, not making up all new ones to replace the old.
Okay, so we've determined that this proposal is problematic. I'm convinced that, in its current form, this proposal likely does more harm than leaving Appendix B in place for another quarter. Tal (or anyone else who takes issue with this proposal), would you mind assisting in clarifying the language so this actually does what we want it to? This seems like a good place to do it to get plenty of feedback before an item actually goes on the ballot for next time.Kord
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Talisin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/12 05:59I'm not entirely onboard with this concept in the first place. Despite the vitriol, Appendix B (a bit of trivia) was adopted unanimously when it was originally introduced, and has sufficed for more years than a lot of people have even been in the game (not quite two decades, but a damn long time). The problem I see with this proposal (aside from the gaping holes one could park a truck in) is that it's reacting to one specific incident that was mostly caused by the wording of the decision of the previous monarch, not by App. B itself. Wiping it off the map in favor of something vague without any real guidelines at all is liable to swing things in the other direction. When you have monarchs imposing vastly different sentences for what appear to be similar crimes, we'll hear people screaming about how there aren't any fair guidelines.
The solution needs to be somewhere in the middle.Tal
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Hannibal Finvarra
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/12 13:38Talisin wrote: I'm not entirely onboard with this concept in the first place. Despite the vitriol, Appendix B (a bit of trivia) was adopted unanimously when it was originally introduced, and has sufficed for more years than a lot of people have even been in the game (not quite two decades, but a damn long time). The problem I see with this proposal (aside from the gaping holes one could park a truck in) is that it's reacting to one specific incident that was mostly caused by the wording of the decision of the previous monarch, not by App. B itself. Wiping it off the map in favor of something vague without any real guidelines at all is liable to swing things in the other direction. When you have monarchs imposing vastly different sentences for what appear to be similar crimes, we'll hear people screaming about how there aren't any fair guidelines.
The solution needs to be somewhere in the middle.
So I have not been in the IM for more then 2ish years, can you name any Monarchs that have enacted App B.?
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Talisin
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/12 15:49Hannibal Finvarra wrote: So I have not been in the IM for more then 2ish years, can you name any Monarchs that have enacted App B.?
Yes. Both in the core and in the principalities. No, I'm not going to go into the details here. People have been banned, mundane authorities have been involved in some instances, those instances are over and done with. I'm not going to drag people back through the mud on a public forum. You want specifics, ask someone offline.
Whether it's been used at all, used infrequently, or used every weekend is completely irrelevant in any case. App B is not responsible for some monarchs not having any sack, or failing to discover wrongdoing, or failing to use App B because they didn't have any reason to. You want to cure those problems? Encourage the populace to report wrongdoing rather than indulging it, and elect monarchs with sack and decision-making abilities. NO piece of paper will fix those things.Tal
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Hannibal Finvarra
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Re:Althing Discussion: Proposal #5 - Remove punishment appendix and incorporate into body of Corpora - 2010/05/12 17:15Thank you, I've just had not heard of anyone fully enacting App. B. I have done a bit of thinking over the last day or so and yes this proposal does have issues and it may not be the smartest thing to throw it in, I am just looking for info so I can re-write this as a better proposal. Thank you for your time.
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