Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 06:58Katherine wrote : Oh and by the way Judge 1, Judge 2, etc... I heard Totem assign each of these as I was still entering my items. I know what judge is who. Yeah I'm not supposed to, but then again the judges aren't supposed to know whose items are whose as apparently YOU did. After all you were there and watched it happen. So much for autonomy.
Well if you know the reactions ECT of any of the judges figuring out whom some of them are is not that difficult. One of them, called me a liar, and made a comment about disliking cherries. I am fairly sure I know who that is. And I would not blame them in the least for being honest with me. I would not hold the comments of any of them against them.
Katherine : Poor preparation I will admit to. Yes it was poor preparation. I was working on 20 items and some didn’t get finished because I didn’t have the time. Also because I was working under such time constraints that I didn’t have time to make the items well. I could have done better with more time, but 4 weeks is not enough time when you have a family who also needs you. (Yes I actually have a life outside of the game. )
Well unfortunately, that is something that the position does not really allow for. The responsibilities to the kingdom basically must come first. That is why the qualification process is as difficult as it is. However that is my view and your mileage may vary.
Actually I DO have the scores as stated before. I have the judges notes.
Actually this really disturbs me, Who gave you the scores? The Notes I understand, but I have been told that the scores are kept until they are released to all contestants equally. They can tell you if you qualified or not without telling you what your scores are. Also, that you were given the names bothers me, since that also deviates from the established norm here.
Example: note on painted mini (which in Darkmoon is 3D art and the painting of minis is not specifically stated in the corpora as to where they go) painting on objects should be 2D art -1 point. I lost a whole point because it was in the wrong category. And yes that one point would have taken the score from a 2 to a 3. 2 not passing, 3 passing. Guess it WAS one of the issues. 4 out of 5 judges scored it as being out of category and deducted points for it. The one who didn’t was Totem (a serpent knight) who was the one who told me to put a different mini I had entered in that category in a Darkmoon A&S tourney last year. Our reasoning: a mini is a 3 dimensional object and there for put into the 3D category. But as I was told later I did not MAKE the mini, I only PAINTED the mini so it should go in the 2D category. Makes no since to me, but hey 4 out of 5 judges said so (at least 3 of them serpent knights as well) I guess it must be so. There for lesson learned. If I were ever to enter another A&S tourney (which I am not EVER going to do again) I would put my mini in the 2D category. Even though I STILL feel that 3D is the correct category (see below) BTW... Corpora states only (taken from the downloaded copy of the updated virsion from this web site) check it yourself if you like.
Since when is a mini (Flat)? I would qualify a mini as sculpture.
The simple version of an answer here would be, where did you do the work. Did you sculpt it? One of my guys here creates mini’s. He actually used to own the pre-company to what later became Ral Partha, called Tekumel Miniatures. He sculpted the mini’s for mass production, back in the 70’s. I would consider him if he entered a painted mini in 3-d art. But if you did not make the 3-d aspect it would have to be a 2-d piece.
If I had had my items in the right category I would have passed crown quals. My biggest mistake is in trying to run with so little time to make the items and study the rulebook and corpora. My next mistake was letting all of this get to me the way it has and making myself sick over it.
I will never again run for any office, Imperial, Baronial or what not.
This part is your choice. But realize that it will limit you greatly. No one that has ever had an impact in this game, has not had many times had to pick themselves up after either a huge failure or an unfair situation. I seem to recall you saying you were stubborn, I would suggest that you pick yourself up again, decide what it is that you want from this game, and go for that. To let one instance defeat you… Well I would not let any one drive me off, or keep me from doing things I want to do.
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Korderellin
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Posts: 380
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 07:09Katheryne wrote: Poor preparation I will admit to. Yes it was poor preperation. I was working on 20 items and some didnt get finished because I didnt have the time. Also because I was working under such time constraints that I didnt have time to make the items well. I could have done better with more time, but 4 weeks is not enough time when you have a family who also needs you. (Yes I actually have a life outside of the game. )
We attempted to warn you that Imperial office was more or less a full time job. I personally remember quite a long diatribe of mine expounding what all would be required to be successful in office. Unfortunately, I did not have the foresight to include a discussion of the time commitment necessary to even qualify for office. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, I will endeavor to remember to include quals in any future discussions of the necessary requirements for Imperial office.
Personally, I am somewhat disappointed that you are using the "I didn't have time!" excuse when we gave you more than adequate warning about how much time you would need to dedicate to the position. You chose not to heed those warnings. While I am sorry that real life conspired against you as far as being able to commit the time necessary, I do feel as if all of your outside life situation should have been taken into account before running for Imperial office. The primary reason we have such a dirth of candidates is that Imperial office is, as I've said on numerous occasions, a full time commitment. Quals are admittedly somewhat time consuming, but no more so than the actual job itself. That is yet another one of the reasons we have quals: to show that the individual in question is dedicated enough and can commit enough of their time to the game to be able to hold office. If you were unable to finish quals in time, then I'm afraid the chances of you being able to make the necessary time commitment for the office are rather slim. Just doing the bare minimum to get by in office is not acceptable, and frankly, I would rather have our present election situation than have an officer who is unwilling or unable to do what is necessary for the Empire to thrive.Kord
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Rewth
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Posts: 1532
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 08:03Katheryne wrote: That very nice, but Darkmoon STILL doesnt have them. I was told by Totem it was not for lack of asking for them.
not gettign involved here, i swear.... not only did i post to the lists, but i responded to email from totem requesting the test on: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 22:05:46 -0600 (MDT) that was the night before quals.
i also responded to a private message here a little prior to that. "not for lack of asking for them" makes it look like i wasn't responding ot requests.
Actually I DO have the scores as stated before. I have the judges notes. Example: note on painted mini (which in Darkmoon is 3D art and the painting of minis is not spacifically stated in the corpora as to where they go) painting on objects should be 2D art -1 point. I lost a whole point because it was in the wrong catagory. And yes that one point would have taken the score from a 2 to a 3. 2 not passing, 3 passing. Guess it WAS one of the issues. 4 out of 5 judges scored it as being out of catagory and deducted points for it.
ok... this bugs me. tal acknowledges tht this has been a ongoing debate for years. i really dislike that judges can't take such a thing into account when scoring. if you KNOW that there is contention as to how an item gets entered, its a pretty crappy thing to mark it down because someone entered it i nthe category you personally disagree with. its not thier fault.
i find it even more annoying if the person running the quals agreed with the item placement or did not choose to re-assign a category to the item. at that point the judges should score it oon its merits and ignore the category.
as for the logic behind hte debate... anyone who paints minis and does it well knows that the 3d aspects of the medium are the tool being used to paint. its not really the brush thats painting as much as its the mini painting itself. hard to explain, but the whole basis of using inks, washes, drybrushing, and a myriad of other techniques all rely on the mini having certain textures.
should it be its own category? fuck no. but it should be decided by the person running the qual which category it should be placed in and at that point hte judges need to leave thier personal bias at the door.
i'm thinking bout entering quals this uncoming weekend in the nh... just cuz i can... and i'll be entering a mini or two if i do.
I will never again run for any office, Imperial, Baronial or what not.
i thought you don't give up easily? one very rushed attempt, under a lot of stress fails to work out and you are gonna walk away from holding office forever. you stepped up to do a job no one else was willing to do. i commend you for that. you didn't get into office for reasons that are questionable, but prolly valid by direct interpretation of the corpora (combined with your runnin mate changing his mind). cope. shit happens. the corpora ruins someone's fun, yet again. unfortuantely, its a necessary evil. next time try harder.
fer those of you jumping on her back with crap that amounts to "i told you so" and "you shold have known that"... back off already. i know yer trying to help, but it sure isn't coming off that way to those on the sidelines."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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cio cio
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Posts: 237
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 10:41Rewth wrote: i thought you don't give up easily? one very rushed attempt, under a lot of stress fails to work out and you are gonna walk away from holding office forever. you stepped up to do a job no one else was willing to do. i commend you for that. you didn't get into office for reasons that are questionable, but prolly valid by direct interpretation of the corpora (combined with your runnin mate changing his mind). cope. shit happens. the corpora ruins someone's fun, yet again. unfortuantely, its a necessary evil. next time try harder.
fer those of you jumping on her back with crap that amounts to "i told you so" and "you shold have known that"... back off already. i know yer trying to help, but it sure isn't coming off that way to those on the sidelines.
Oh boy!
I agree with Rewth.
Shit does happen. One failure shouldn't get you that far down.
And I agree with the "yer not helping" aspect.
I know folks are trying reason and explanations on both sides of this discussion. When a thing is done, it's done. Fighting about who screwed up where ain't gonna make anyone really feel all that better. Vindicated maybe, but in the end vindication is a pretty cold comfort.
I'm sorry that Katheryne has been frustrated so much in this attempt. Sounds like it was a rough experience.
Katheryne, if there is anything I can say to ya to change your mind and your feelings, I'd happily do it. Please, try to come to Rakis. I'm pretty sure you'll see that there's more to this than a dissapointment. And that these folks are trying to help you understand, not run ya down.
I'm eager to help you renew the "fun" feeling.
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rabbitt13
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Posts: 293
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 11:03cio cio wrote: I'm eager to help you renew the "fun" feeling.
I second, third and forth that. This is a game where we all get together, put on silly clothes, beat on each other with nerf swords, and hang out with friends at the park.
I now how hard it is to let things roll, and not take things personally. Believe me I know. But please try to find the strength to give the game one more shot, one more chance to be fun. Try to push the bad feelings to the side (again..I know how hard that can be) and give this game another try.
This game is kept alive by it's new members, and their new ideas. Without them the game will not continue to grow and progress.
bunny
Post edited by: rabbitt13, at: 2006/06/08 11:03
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Talisin
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Posts: 537
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 11:39Rewth wrote:ok... this bugs me. tal acknowledges tht this has been a ongoing debate for years. i really dislike that judges can't take such a thing into account when scoring.
Of course they can. I'm sure some judges ignore it completely. But there has never been an official decision to say, "Yes, miniatures (or pre-cast figures that are just painted by the entrant) are 3D" or "No, they are 2D"- so far it's been left up to the judge's discretion.
If, on the other hand, someone wants to try to get this clarified once and for all and there is an official decision that they count as 3D art (or whatever), then great! But if it's going to be left up to the judges' judgment (ok, clearly I'm tired, just roll with it), then you're going to get their judgments and whether anyone agrees or disagrees is moot- the reason the judges are there is to give what boil down to opinions.
Occasionally you run up against something so inappropriate for the category that you can't justify its existence, and those I think get hammered a lot harder than miniatures ever do.
Post edited by: Talisin, at: 2006/06/08 11:41Tal
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cio cio
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Posts: 237
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 15:15well, remember the discussion about the "needs own category stuff". ONe of the things pointed out was that you can apply for a specific category. For example when we do our next local quals I'm going to ask for a category for "herbal medicines and treatments".
(I was thinking of doing fireworks, but I'm too cheap to spring for the license.)
Heck it's got me thinking about another Rose entry...
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MatthiasDR
Visitor
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 21:17Just a lil insight as I see it.
Katheryne I urge you not to let this setback sour you on serving in office. I have seen alot of good honest hard working people crumble while trying to serve in local office let alone the big chair. Some people are born to lead but most of us have to learn by trial by fire. Pick yourself up and try again.. seriously Amtgard needs more 1st years people like willking to jump into the mess that is office on any level. Learn what went right what went wrong.. ask what could have been done diffrent by yourself. learn where other people made errors so you wont repeat them and you will recognize the errors in the future....
You will do great just dont give up!!!
Id like to touch on something that had been bugging me alot and not just because of this incident. Whenever any sort of drama or stress comes along the common thing i hear is " It's just a game!"
While I agree it IS just a game those people who are stepping up into office or autocrating a event or just generally voulenteering to help out need to remember one thing
When you step up you agree to take on a JOB; a job that you have to do so that everyone else can 'just play the game" If you dont do your best the game will suffer.
And to those who do see flaws in your leaders remember they are human beings and (most of the time) are really doing their best. So, next time you think you see something you can do to help.. do so! Then everyone can go back to playin "just the game"
I hope you guys can understand what I am saying and where I am coming from. I always sound good to myself. =)
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SirZodiac
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Posts: 70
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 21:20well this argument is mute anyway, but from what I am gathering from listening to one of the judges, (since Tal was a judge) that is not really applicable.
I saw her refereince having two weapons for example, and trying to put one in passive contruction. that one is obviously wrong.
and you know what. I have faith (for all of the rough comments I got ] ) in the judges who were there. they are good judges, and other than one who obviously has no taste (because they dislike cherries) are good at what they do. (note Judge PLEASE DO NOT KILL ME THIS IS A JOKE)
the system is in place, for a reason. One that has worked for a long time. Its not like you would allow osmeone who did not put the effort into stepping up at PRP. We should hold Kingdom to an even higher standard than we hold ourselves to.
b]cio cio wrote:[/b] well, remember the discussion about the "needs own category stuff". ONe of the things pointed out was that you can apply for a specific category. For example when we do our next local quals I'm going to ask for a category for "herbal medicines and treatments".
(I was thinking of doing fireworks, but I'm too cheap to spring for the license.)
Heck it's got me thinking about another Rose entry...
Post edited by: sirzodiac, at: 2006/06/08 21:21
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rabbitt13
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Posts: 293
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/08 22:18MatthiasDR wrote: Id like to touch on something that had been bugging me alot and not just because of this incident. Whenever any sort of drama or stress comes along the common thing i hear is " It's just a game!" While I agree it IS just a game those people who are stepping up into office or autocrating a event or just generally voulenteering to help out need to remember one thing When you step up you agree to take on a JOB; a job that you have to do so that everyone else can 'just play the game" If you dont do your best the game will suffer.
When you put it that way it puts a whole different outlook on the "game". You have given me something else to think about...
Thanks Matthias for the eye opener.
bunny
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Takezu
Admin
Posts: 717
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/09 14:02Reminder to send your ballots to me before midnight or come to the allthing tomorrow at IMD's new park.It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. --Aristotle
Patriotism: The willing act of putting one's life & well being at risk for politicians who are not similarly disposed.
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Airleas
Visitor
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/09 15:21I do not have the scores or comments in front of me to quote, so please forgive me if my memory is not 100% correct.
#1 Mini's....
[Katheryn] Actually I DO have the scores as stated before. I have the judges notes. Example: note on painted mini (which in Darkmoon is 3D art and the painting of minis is not spacifically stated in the corpora as to where they go) painting on objects should be 2D art -1 point. I lost a whole point because it was in the wrong catagory. And yes that one point would have taken the score from a 2 to a 3. 2 not passing, 3 passing. Guess it WAS one of the issues. 4 out of 5 judges scored it as being out of catagory and deducted points for it.
[Rewth] ok... this bugs me. tal acknowledges tht this has been a ongoing debate for years. i really dislike that judges can't take such a thing into account when scoring. if you KNOW that there is contention as to how an item gets entered, its a pretty crappy thing to mark it down because someone entered it i nthe category you personally disagree with. its not thier fault.
i find it even more annoying if the person running the quals agreed with the item placement or did not choose to re-assign a category to the item. at that point the judges should score it oon its merits and ignore the category.
as for the logic behind hte debate... anyone who paints minis and does it well knows that the 3d aspects of the medium are the tool being used to paint. its not really the brush thats painting as much as its the mini painting itself. hard to explain, but the whole basis of using inks, washes, drybrushing, and a myriad of other techniques all rely on the mini having certain textures.
should it be its own category? fuck no. but it should be decided by the person running the qual which category it should be placed in and at that point hte judges need to leave thier personal bias at the door.
i'm thinking bout entering quals this uncoming weekend in the nh... just cuz i can... and i'll be entering a mini or two if i do.
--------------------------------- My turn
I was one of the judges, and I believe you are referring to my note of "-1pt for wrong category" for the mini's. You should also note that (if my memory serves me - correct me if I'm mistaken) I still gave the miniatures scores around a 3. That is still a qualifying score, and it is because I recognized that the work on the miniatres was indeed above average.
I was aware that most objects in the 3D category were painted or glazed objects, not created by the entrant. When I had a question I requested information to clarify.
I have argued a 3D 'enhanced' category, separate from 3D Art. Painting miniatures may be more difficult than an oil painting, but I doubt it. The 3D texture of miniatures may also pose it's own unique challenges. So do chalks, pencils, watercolor and oil painting.
The point is though, that the entrant did not create the 3 dimensional shape. And that, to me, is an intregal part of the 3D category. If you want to put miniatures into a 3D category, create a scene with the mini's. Create a landscape to go with them. Take a hair from your head and string the bow on an archer. Take parts of different miniatures and join them together in a unique way that adds a 3rd dimension to what you have. Don't paint something and say that I created 3d Art. That is just category bombing, and it is an excuse.
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SirZodiac
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Posts: 70
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/09 15:47And I think its sad we have to have our judges justify themselves.
they perform a Needed service, and parts of this conversation make them into the villians, which is utter crap.
my 2 cents, your milage may vary
Airleas wrote: I do not have the scores or comments in front of me to quote, so please forgive me if my memory is not 100% correct.
#1 Mini's....
[Katheryn] Actually I DO have the scores as stated before. I have the judges notes. Example: note on painted mini (which in Darkmoon is 3D art and the painting of minis is not spacifically stated in the corpora as to where they go) painting on objects should be 2D art -1 point. I lost a whole point because it was in the wrong catagory. And yes that one point would have taken the score from a 2 to a 3. 2 not passing, 3 passing. Guess it WAS one of the issues. 4 out of 5 judges scored it as being out of catagory and deducted points for it.
[Rewth] ok... this bugs me. tal acknowledges tht this has been a ongoing debate for years. i really dislike that judges can't take such a thing into account when scoring. if you KNOW that there is contention as to how an item gets entered, its a pretty crappy thing to mark it down because someone entered it i nthe category you personally disagree with. its not thier fault.
i find it even more annoying if the person running the quals agreed with the item placement or did not choose to re-assign a category to the item. at that point the judges should score it oon its merits and ignore the category.
as for the logic behind hte debate... anyone who paints minis and does it well knows that the 3d aspects of the medium are the tool being used to paint. its not really the brush thats painting as much as its the mini painting itself. hard to explain, but the whole basis of using inks, washes, drybrushing, and a myriad of other techniques all rely on the mini having certain textures.
should it be its own category? fuck no. but it should be decided by the person running the qual which category it should be placed in and at that point hte judges need to leave thier personal bias at the door.
i'm thinking bout entering quals this uncoming weekend in the nh... just cuz i can... and i'll be entering a mini or two if i do.
--------------------------------- My turn
I was one of the judges, and I believe you are referring to my note of "-1pt for wrong category" for the mini's. You should also note that (if my memory serves me - correct me if I'm mistaken) I still gave the miniatures scores around a 3. That is still a qualifying score, and it is because I recognized that the work on the miniatres was indeed above average.
I was aware that most objects in the 3D category were painted or glazed objects, not created by the entrant. When I had a question I requested information to clarify.
I have argued a 3D 'enhanced' category, separate from 3D Art. Painting miniatures may be more difficult than an oil painting, but I doubt it. The 3D texture of miniatures may also pose it's own unique challenges. So do chalks, pencils, watercolor and oil painting.
The point is though, that the entrant did not create the 3 dimensional shape. And that, to me, is an intregal part of the 3D category. If you want to put miniatures into a 3D category, create a scene with the mini's. Create a landscape to go with them. Take a hair from your head and string the bow on an archer. Take parts of different miniatures and join them together in a unique way that adds a 3rd dimension to what you have. Don't paint something and say that I created 3d Art. That is just category bombing, and it is an excuse.
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Airleas
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Posts: 2
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/09 16:15Oh, one other thing.
If you do not agree with the way the judge scored - YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTEST THAT SCORE. It is in the copora. Really, it is. I just re-read that part to make sure it hadn't been changed.
I'm not advocating contesting every score, but if you were told to enter something in one category by the autocrat and the judge scored it down for being in the wrong category, it is entirely reasonable to contest the score on those grounds.
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cio cio
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Posts: 237
Re:June 2006 All thing - 2006/06/10 05:42SirZodiac wrote: And I think its sad we have to have our judges justify themselves.
they perform a Needed service, and parts of this conversation make them into the villians, which is utter crap.
my 2 cents, your milage may vary
I don't think judges have to justify themselves. I think what they're doing here is explaining their feelings about the category itself.
Sometimes, scores can really confound an entrant. An item they've worked hard on, had other people comment on and ooh and ahh over get's a bad score, they wonder - did the judge have it in for me?
I've also watched folks judge who were over nitpicky, and knocked stuff down mercilessly and folks who gushed over every item and gave it great scores. Usually these types both get assigned judging at the same time, and cancel each other out. Sometimes you get a whole panel of Russian judges (woe to the entrant - better have brought your best!) and sometimes you get a bunch of gushers.
That said, I think it's great when judges do write down why the graded items as they did (as it sounds they did in this case.)
As a judge, I've often been a little frustrated when I couldn't tell a contestant that I was marking their item this way or that because of this or that. I realize not everyone cares that I gave them a little less because their hems weren't finished or more because their presentation was so good, however I believe as an artisan, that kind of feedback helps me improve for the next time.
And in some way, that's a justification. Also as an artisan, if the judges marked me down for something that I found questionable, I'd know how to avoid it in the future. If I specifically left the hems undone because I wanted a certain look, I could include that in future write-ups for example.
Post edited by: cio cio, at: 2006/06/10 05:47
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)
) in the judges who were there. they are good judges, and other than one who obviously has no taste (because they dislike cherries) are good at what they do. (note Judge PLEASE DO NOT KILL ME THIS IS A JOKE)
