Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Projectile - 2006/05/03 08:27in response to a thread on E-sam i made a interpretation/clarification as Imperial GMR.
the questions was, what happens if someone bearing stacked prtection from magic and protection rom projectiles enchantments is hit by an arrow bearing the magic projectile enchantment.
my answer: the person is dead.
1. Magic Projectile enchances the damage of the arrow. 2. damage is not magic. it's jsut damage. there is no such thing as "3 points regular, 1 point magic" its jsut 4 points of damage. 3. pro magic protects from magic, not damage. the note related to imbue weapon is referring to magical effects that come in addition to damage (which are negated). 4. pro projectile does not protect from arrows bearing the magic projectile enchantment. 5. person bearing both enchantments is not protected in any way from arrows bearing magic projectile and is dead. or wounded. period. oh, and thier armor has a hole in it too.
please note this also directly relates to bladeshapes vs pro-magic as bladesharp enchaned damage is the same thing. (pro magic doesn't stop the extra damage)"But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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artimusd
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Projectile - 2006/05/03 17:26But wouldnt the pro magic negate the effects of other enchantments?Hops.....Grains.....By God, my beer is a salad!
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Rewth
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/03 18:04it negates the magical effects yes. damage is not a magical effect. increased damage is also not a magical effect. if the arrow also had imbue upon it, then pro magic would negate the wounds kill aspect.
as stated by some folks o nthe design team... bladesharp/magic projectile jsut make it extra sharp, not necesarily magically so. though the weapon is now also considered "magic" for the purposed to getting through "tough" creatures defenses.
the logic is kinda convoluted, but ultimately makes sense."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Grendel
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/04 07:30it makes sense, but it's still kinda funny that a pro-projectile, pro magic stack can't stop a dagger or arrow with a plus one magic to it..
(btw - this applies to throwing weapons with magic projectile right?)Dragoon Strike First. Strike Hard. No Mercy. Hús Vetra Skald IMU
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Rewth
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/04 10:43correct. throwies with magic projectile wouldn't be stopped either.
one more explanation of the way it breaks down....
pro-magic doesn't stop bladesharp or magic projectile. for a couple reasons. the first and foremost is that those enchantments simply enhance the damage of the weapon. that damage isn't magical as there is no such thing as magic damage. they are also magic weapons, which the pro-magic would remove the status of if it actually gave any notable effect. there is also an argument that the enchantment is on the weapon not the player, but i dont' really buy that as it stops magic efffects on weapons like flame blade or imbue weapon (though if either enchantment also increased the weapons damage, the extra damage would still function)
pro-projectile specifically excludes itself from stopping weapons bearing the magic projectile enchantment. that part is cut n dry and spelled out to the letter i nthe rules.
since neither enchantment stops the arrow, the nthe damage gets through."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Cullum
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/04 12:22Rewth wrote: pro-magic doesn't stop bladesharp or magic projectile. for a couple reasons. the first and foremost is that those enchantments simply enhance the damage of the weapon. that damage isn't magical as there is no such thing as magic damage. they are also magic weapons, which the pro-magic would remove the status of if it actually gave any notable effect. there is also an argument that the enchantment is on the weapon not the player, but i dont' really buy that as it stops magic efffects on weapons like flame blade or imbue weapon (though if either enchantment also increased the weapons damage, the extra damage would still function)
I agree with the thesis (at least on a functional basis), but not with the reasoning. Dispel Magic can negate a bladesharp/magic projectile bonus, so why doesn't Pro: Magic ?
Here's my interpretation: Pro: Magic does not stop a weapon enhanced by bladesharp/bludgeon or magical projectile, but it does strip off the enhanced damage. In practice, whether or not it strips the magic doesn't really matter, because Pro: Magic cannot negate the weapon's normal damage. Either the target is hit in an unarmored location, so 1 point is the same as 5, or they are hit in the armor, which is not protected by the enchantment and the weapon does full damage.
There are two scenarios where the magic stripping does matter. First is the one described above, where the target has Pro: Magic stacked with Pro: Projectiles . At the base minimum, this is an expenditure of a third and a fourth level spell (and a sixth, unless you are using a 6th Scout). Should this expenditure be able to beat a first level spell? Absolutely! Wearing both those protections does not make you invulnerable; I'd argue it makes you more reckless, and thus more likely to get your self killed. After all, your equipment is not protected, and you are not protected from being dumb or overwhelmed.
The second scenario is one that was much more popular before 7.0: Pro: Magic cast on a piece of armor. It's dumb, but it has happened (although Pro: Flame on a paladin/anti-paladin was much more popular). It's a problem because if the magic is stripped, then your can-opener throwing dagger is reduced to only one point again. It's less of a problem with arrows, because they have a higher base damage.
And finally, I have to point out a contradiction in the designer note: Dispel Magic negates the enhanced damage of a weapon with bladesharp or magical projectile, right? That means that there is some sort of magic maintaining the enhancement, because Dispel Magic cannot affect "enchantments already discharged." Thus, the weapon itself carries a magic that can be temporarily dispelled by Pro: Magic.
In the final analysis, I'd say that Pro: Projectiles stacked with Pro: Magic should stop enhanced projectiles. Of course, you're the IMGMR, so it is ultimately your call; I just hope you'll consider my arguments and not make (what I think is) the wrong call.
Post edited by: cullum, at: 2006/05/04 12:23Superstar, do you think you're what they say you are?
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Rewth
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/04 15:40you are missing a few things that have changed in 7.0 cullum. back in 6.0 i might have agreed with you, though i'm not sure. warning... this is gonna be long.
first off... you are maintaining a distinction between magic damage and regular damage... there is none. damage is damage is damage regardless of how its created.
second. damage only applies to armor. it does not apply to players. which makes you raise n eyebrow and say "what the hell you talkin bout willis?" but players don't take damage... they take hits. you as a player are either hit or not hit, the damage is not applicable. armor absorbs damage, if the damage is compeltely absorbed then you are not hit, if it is not completely absorbed, then you are hit.
third. the i s a notable distinction between dispell magic and protection from magic. protection from magic blocks magic from effecting you, the magic is stil lthere it jsut has no effect. dispell removed the enchantment from the item/player in question.
so.....
blade sharp gets placed on a weapon... what happens? the weapon's damage increases by 1. the weapon is now considered magical.
lets say you have pro-magic and get hit by that sword... the player attacking you calls "TWO!" they do NOT call "one, plus one magic!" you have been hit. because you are not wearing armor, you take a wound. simple. note that the damage dealt never comes into the equation.
lets say you have one point of armor and get hit by the sword... the player attaching calls "TWO!" enchantments are skin tight, so the armor gains no benefit from the pro-magic enchantment. the armor takes 2 damage, it can only absorb 1. because there is damage left over, you take a hit and are wounded. again, pro-magic was never really an issue.
now... lets say this weapon also has imbue stacked on it somehow... you still have 1 pt of armor. the player attaching calls "TWO, WOUNDS KILL!" again, pro magic not o nthe armor so two points exceeds your one, you take a hit. pro magic sees the wounds kill... holy crap! thats magical! BZZZZT! no effect! but... you still took a hit. so you are still wounded (or dead if it was a torso or second limb)
still with me?
lets go to arrows...
a scout shoots an arrow with magic projectile from a longbow - 5pts of damage - is a magical weapon - bears magic projectile
you get hit by the arrow while you have pro-projectile because the arrow bears the magic projectile enchantment, you take a hit and are wounded or dead.
you get hit while bearing pro-magic: the arrow hits you. damage is irrelevant as above. promagic is ineffective, you take a hit and are wounded or dead.
you get hit while bearing pro-mag stacked with pro-proj the arrow hits you. damage is irrelevant the arrow stills bears the magic projectile enchantment, so it pierces pro-proj as well. you take a hit and are wounded or dead.
in that last situation the key part is that pro-magic doesn't remove the enchantment from the arrow. it jsut makes you able to ignore the magical effect of it. since the HIT is not magical, you still are hit.
now... in ALL of the above cases, the arrow hitting you is no longer cosnidered to be a "magical weapon" because pro-magic negates that concept. being a "magical weapon" is a magical effect. welcome to the primary reason monsters can not take enchantments.
however, the bonus damage is still there. damage isn't a magical effect even if the enchantment that made it exist is. its jsut damage. and it only applies to armor. you, as a player only get to see hits.
now... since you brought up dispell... if you dispell the arrow or blade before oyu are hit with it, then the enchantment and all its effects are removed. the bonus damage is gone, the weapon is no longermagical, and if it was an arrow it no longer bears the magical projectile enchantment.
i still stand my decision.
however... that said... MEDRYN! add this to the list of things to take to the circle of monarchs. the fact that this requires this much discussion and still results in some grey areas that can be argued means it needs an official clarification or rules change by the CoM."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Rewth
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/04 15:49side note... above i kinda imply that things might be differnet if pro-magic was on the armor....
it wouldn't be.
a 4pt arrow with mag-projectile deals 5 pts od damage to the armor. even if the armor was protected by pro-magic it would still take 5 points.
why?
cuz damage is NOT magic... its jsut damage. damage is damage is damage, remember?
so if the damage (5pts) exceeds the armor (lets say it was 4) then you take a hit and are therefor wounded or dead."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Keign
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/04 17:46I disagree with you, Rewth - definitely more your call than mine, but as I see the situation it seems to me that the damage would be removed.
The protection from magic would negate the magic on the weapon, and at the same time remove the bonus damage - if it didn't do this, I see basically no point in having it remove the magic in the first place. Just making it no longer "magic" wouldn't make sense or be fair, the results of the magic must be removed too, logically. Therefore, it should remove the damage from the weapon, because it removes the magic sustaining that damage.
Now, with the stacked protection from projectile, it could deflect the arrow itself as well, because it is no longer magical, and therefore it can be affected by the protection spell.
Damage is damage is damage, but some damage is sustained by magic. If that magic is removed before the damage counts, then the damage it was sustaining goes away, and can't have any effect.
That's what makes sense to me - the enchantments count before the damage does, presumably, so the enchantment on the arrow should be removed by the protection from magic, and then the no-longer-enchanted arrow should be deflected by the protection from projectiles. Unless you have something prevalent to say, shut up. If you don't know what prevalent means, cut out your own tongue.
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Rewth
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/05 17:18in part i agree with you. this dosn't make sense. unfortunately when it comes down to interpreting the rules im not really allowed to go with what makes sense. if it matters, i don't like the result of this interpretation and i hope the CoM revises it.
the problem with where yer arguing though...
first off in the above examples, "damage" only came into play in he cases where there was armor involved. in all other the damage itself is completley inconsequential its still jsut a hit or not a hit.
secondly, even if it was an issue, there is absolutely no part of the rules that covers damage of different "type" or "sources" from a single hit.
third, removing part of the damage is a pain i nthe ass for all involved. you'd have to notify your target if you were swinging "1 damage, 1 improved, 1 magic, total of three!!!!". the target then has to figure if they are immune to any part o that damage and then decide how it effects their armor and whether that kills them. i played ifgs for a while and trust me, that sucks. its even worse when we can have different armor values on various locations.
and fourth, the magic is not actually removed from the item, it is ignored and that is a big difference. even if pro-magic let you ignore the pro-projectile bonus damage, the arrow still possess the enchantment and therefor would still penetrate pro-projectile with the rest of it (assuming you were allowed to ignore part of it).
i'm stickin to my guns on this one. even if i don't like it myself, thats the way the rules are written (at least as i interpret them)."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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QuietEyed1
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Re:Stacked ProMagic/ProProjectile vs Magic Project - 2006/05/08 19:22In terms of game balance (which seems to be what this discussion is about)...
Yes, those are much higher level spells, granted. A first level spell negating that does seem imbalanced, at first blush.
However, pro-projectiles stacking on pro-magic affects much, much more than a magical projectile-d arrow. It blocks practically ALL magic, except for the really nasty stuff. The rain of arrows you can almost completely ignore, as most arrows aren't magical projectile, anyway.
Stack on this little fact... Hitting people with arrows is damnably hard on a regular day. Couple it with the possibility of a shieldman guarding that scout/wizard, or them dodging, or you just missing, flat out. Boom, your one-shot arrow is gone, and you're not getting it back. If you have a very like-minded druid with you, you'll get four shots, period.
I know I probably couldn't kill somebody with pro-projectiles 4 out of 4 times, with 4 dead-on shots. If I even wound them, they're immune to the rest of my arrows anyway, because the enchantment remains in place against my regular arrows.
So I'm agreeing with Rewth, as the NH GMR (even though I'm particularly lazy as such).Quiet
Baron of the Northern Holdfast, August '08 -
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