Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/24 21:47FitzCaliston wrote: Wohooo! I guess I really hit a nerve or something! Wow! I definately was not calling Tal a bad Pm or meaning to call her to repremand or anything of the kind! Slow down
aight. cool.
FitzCaliston wrote: My post was a sarcastic way of reminding folks that thier PM can't enter what they don't have. If I'd have been seriously trying to get on Tal's bad side I have better and more pressing ways to do that. It's good to know that the IMD is finally trying at least to recitfy the situation.
oh really? you wrote: FitzCaliston wrote: K, I noticed,..... actually I've known for years that the IMD's Ork records are completely lacking in completness. It's the PM's responsibility per corpora to keep it up to date.
Right there it says you've known for years about a problem, and apparently not addressed it till now, on a public forum calling out IMD. no offense, but when you call out the park, you call out the members of the park, including but not limited to the PM.
FitzCaliston wrote: All you IMD players (especially Knights) need to get all your info to the PM of the IMD for input to the ORK so they can fullfill thier office! Don't let them slack on your account!!!!
now you're telling IMD players to make sure the PM has their info, and not to let their PM slack on their account. that could be taken as you calling the PM a slacker and stepping on the PM's dick by putting out a public message urging them to check with the PM to make sure the records are accurate. sorta like you're doing the IMD PM's job, which Tal was already taking care of ( I know, you weren't aware of that ) maybe when you don't know the whole situation you could instead send Tal an email or PM on this forum "Hey Tal I noticed Cutari's records seem to be incomplete, and some other folks in IMD are missing info to, I like seeing the core of our kingdom's records setting an example in completeness, is this something you're taking care of or has something been going on where this hasn't been able to be addressed (mundane issues or something?) anyway, thanks for the time"
FitzCaliston wrote: Seriously though folks it's kind of annoying to see our core chapter have it's info so out of date. Awards and credits/classes etc being entirely missing!! Shamefull!!!!
Fitz
ok, the tone of the shameful I can dig, it's like a funny "you darn kids!" but being the internet and all, it could be taken many ways, keep in mind on the internet when you're posting something, someone out there could take it the worse possible way, even with smilies
FitzCaliston wrote: Ultimately it doesn't effect anyone but the players of the IMD, but that doesn't make the last couple of year any less annoying for me. P-)
in the future, instead of having, what, you said "last couple of year" - I'm assuming that's years of annoyance? instead of having at least a year of annoyance about the status of the records for a group that's at least 300 miles away, you could focus on making sure your own shit is taken care of, ie, if we all worried less about what other people are doing, and more about what we are doing it would make things allot simpler. additionally, if this was something you could not bear to live with, why not email the PM about it years ago? in fact, before you tell Cutari about her email having a send button, did you ever consider the email button yourself before you posted to a public list? hmm.. it says on the ork "pm - Talisin" and it gives you a link to email her. wow, amazing that while you did your in depth research of IMD you didn't notice that.
FitzCaliston wrote: Cutari, I've waited for years for your records to be updated on the ork. And just because your paper records have been destroyed doesn't mean they can't be verified by members of DS who were in power in those days and signed off on by the current King of DS.
that could have been sent in an email to Cutari.
FitzCaliston wrote: If players take more responsibility for the accuracy of thier records it will make all PM's jobs easier and make the ORK better tool.
Fitz ps my sweet Knight, your email box has a Send button right next to the Recieve one ya know. P-)
very true, your records are quite the example of perfection. you've got memo's on almost all your awards, pretty pictures, and only one undeclared credit. if your original post had been a broad sweeping call to players across the IM to contact their PM's for accuracy of Ork records this would have been quite productive, instead it looks like an angry little boy making a scene in the middle of a restaurant.Dragoon Strike First. Strike Hard. No Mercy. Hús Vetra Skald IMU
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Grendel
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Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/24 22:42additionally,
IMD is the 'core chapter' ? sure they are the core/center based solely on location, and to determine 'core groups' we measure distance from denver, but I thought we were operating under a floating crown?
Isn't IMD just like any other core chapter now? it does look like an attack on your part when you focus on one group like that. It would be the same if you posted the same thing but inserted "Dark Moon" or "NH" or "CD" instead of IMD.
checklist: 1. the Empire takes the crown/empire out of Denver, and makes it a floating crown. 2. That makes IMD the same as any other chapter, NH, DM, CD, etc.. 3. You don't get to take the crown away and still expect IMD to be better than any other chapter. They aren't responsible for setting the standard or bearing the cross of the kingdom. now I personally think all groups should raise the bar, we should all be pushing to become the best we can be. (excuse the military slogan there)
If you're going to call out groups you might want to focus on every group, like I said before, a general sweeping call to the whole Iron Mountains Empire to get their Ork records in line would have been more positive and important. why have one group's records be in line? why not the whole empire?
you could turn this into something positive still, I'm sure Rewth would love to see his baby used accurately & responsibly, perhaps an introduction to the Ork for new PM's, something that would outline their duties and how to achieve them? edit to add : like a screen capture step by step for entering visitor credits, how to run dues paid reports, etc.. even a reminder to look at the date when entering credits, as the Ork defaults to the day the credits are entered - I recall a few dates that I looked at when I was PM that were entries for a tuesday, ie - I entered them on tuesday at work w/out correcting the date first. newbie things like that /edit.
I know the corpora outlines what a PM is supposed to do, and as the new PM's step up the old PM should be showing them how to use the Ork, but an easy guide with faq's would probably be helpful, have you looked into that? talked to Rewth?
or is it just easier to single out IMD without taking any responsibility for achieving the standards you've set?
Post edited by: Grendel, at: 2006/08/24 22:46Dragoon Strike First. Strike Hard. No Mercy. Hús Vetra Skald IMU
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FitzCaliston
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Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/24 22:47Geesh! I give up
add: Wait no, there are still,..2..5..9.. at least 10 more groups in the IM that I can get to hate me! Awesome something to occupy my time for the rest of the day!
Post edited by: FitzCaliston, at: 2006/08/24 22:53
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Grendel
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Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/24 23:33I made him say matte!
but seriously Fitz, this isn't the Kumite. we're not battling.
I know you're trying to do the right thing, but it's coming out a bit malignant.
regardless of your intent there are certain things that can really bug folks, and I think you're just not fully aware of how strongly some folks feel about certain topics regarding IMD, I've heard the rants as I've said things before that also inspired some strong responses. there's been a history of 'anti IMD' stuff and after a while whenever someone points a finger at IMD those feelings come up. over time I've come to understand the reactions some folks have and why, the attitude that IMD is the group to set the standard and/or correct the issues begins to wear on folks in IMD, especially when they are kicked at and asked for help with the other hand. I can understand that, no one would enjoy that.
by all the pages in the book, they are no different than say, the NH, when it comes to their group responsibilities and rights, etc , both groups are duchies, but I didn't see anyone going off at Quiet or the NH for being behind on the records, well actually we bothered him at the park in person, which isn't possible for you, but in a one on one interaction you can really communicate better and make sure both parties have a clear understanding of each other.
I remember when I was NH PM, Quiet used to email me every Sunday around 6:30 PM when he got home from our park day and ask me why the records hadn't been updated yet. (i updated on mondays at work) that was certainly annoying after a couple weeks and I told him to bugger off about it when I saw him at the park, we talked and clarification was made, no problem.
also, I've watched Tal hold office after office after office in IMD and Imperially with much success and when others weren't available to do so, I think maybe she's in competition with Moss to see who can have the least amount of time in amtgard spent NOT in office, so when you came across with your first post I felt a bit upset, I take full responsibility for my feelings and actions, so be aware I'm not blaming you for my response, I chose to speak, feel, and react as I did.
Tal may be the meanest, darkest, heavy handed, "strong willed" blood slut of them all, but she's still my friend.
maybe you're not aware of this specificially, but I'm sure much of the same kind of crap goes on where you're at, but I'm tired of people being indirect, I'm tired of hearing "oh this person did this!" or "this person said this about you but they won't talk to you about it" behind the back crap has got to stop, I don't care if everyone in the world hates everyone else, as long as they are direct about it and say "hey, I can't stand you, you are messed up and I can't believe you did "X" etc" everyone is so afraid of 'conflict' that they won't even talk to each other honestly anymore. I've heard enough shit talk about people I know, including Tal (but not limited to her), people I don't know, people I like, people I don't like, etc in this Empire already. I'm done with it. I've got a few people to confront for some discussion at the next opportunity I see them. so when you posted I chose to respond the way I did because I'm sick of this crap of attacking people behind their back, or announcing to a bunch of people how person "A" is a such and such, when it could all be solved so simply by either talking directly to the person you've got issue with in private and hopefully getting resolution, at the very least establishing boundaries with the person, or, by not saying shit at all, keep your opinion to yourself, there's no benefit in telling a bunch of folks that aren't even involved with whatever drama it is. vent to your myspace/lj/spouse/whatever. then move on.
another edit to add: I'm not saying I'm perfect at being direct with folks and resolving things either. we're all human and I understand you're human too, I could have approached this situation better too, I could have been more forgiving and understanding, I'll keep this in mind next time I am in similar situations.
I had no intention to turn this into a fight, I just wanted to get my point out there and hopefully give you some insight and understanding.
edit: I didn't mean to suggest you should go out and get every other group in the IM to hate you, please don't think that IMD hates you, that's just not accurate. I'm not trying to put you in a self depreciating mood or thought process, I only meant to suggest a more positive route for ork reinvigoration, and to tell you the way you approached this was messed up.
anyway, peace.
Post edited by: Grendel, at: 2006/08/24 23:39
Post edited by: Grendel, at: 2006/08/24 23:51Dragoon Strike First. Strike Hard. No Mercy. Hús Vetra Skald IMU
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Talisin
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Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/25 02:07First, I want to thank everyone for their comments. I appreciate the support more than I can say. I don't particularly feel that I deserve it, but I do very much appreciate it.
FitzCaliston wrote: Geesh! I give up
add: Wait no, there are still,..2..5..9.. at least 10 more groups in the IM that I can get to hate me! Awesome something to occupy my time for the rest of the day!<br><br>
No Fitz, you don't get to give up.
To summarize what you posted:
1) You demanded to know who the PM of IMD was. 2) You unnecessarily stated the obvious- that the PM is responsible for the ORK- which implies that we somehow are unaware of that. 3) You implied that the IMD PM was slacking. 4) You used the word "shameful" which, as Grendel said, could be taken as being overdone (and therefore a joking prod) or, given the content of the rest of your message, could have been taken seriously. 5) You said all of these things from a perspective hundreds of miles away without any knowledge of how much work had been put into this recently- and you never asked. 6) You singled out IMD even though, as Grendel pointed out, IMD is a subgroup the same as any other.
How do you not see that someone could take this as being offensive? As an attack against me? Worse- I had the same thought Grendel posted earlier. If you were looking that closely at IMD's records, how did you miss the very large note that said I was responsible for maintaining them? It seemed impossible that you could have, which led to believing that you were, for some unknown reason, attacking me in a very sideways, passive-aggressive manner and I was at a loss to understand why you felt the need to do this. Were the situation reversed and I thought that records that were in your keeping were being neglected, I would have had the respect for you to inquire about it privately.
I read it and took it as an attack. Then I read it a few more times and didn't see any other way to take it. Then other people said things that indicated that they took it the same way I did.
You seem to feel a need to manage people and tell them how to do things. I don't know why. Maybe you are perfect, maybe you are better at this and have the right to call everyone else out for their shortcomings. I don't know you well enough and haven't interacted with you on a regular enough basis to be comfortable making that judgement. What I do believe is that you need to understand what your words did, above and beyond the obvious effect it had here in the forums.
Yes, it is true that I had recently printed out all of IMD's records (numbers of awards and numbers of credits) and asked people to manually correct them at the park as part one of an effort to clean them up. Part two (once part one was data entered, which it has been) is to print the award detail that is missing and try to get some of that clarified. It is also true that two days later it rained like hell and my apartment flooded. And then it did it again. And then again the next day. And there were two attempted floodings that we were able to prevent. All of which led to having to pack up and move in less than a week. As a result, I missed two weeks in a row at the park (one spent actually moving and the other spent unpacking and doing large amounts of laundry and cleaning in an attempt to save as many of the things that were soaked and filthy as possible) and the data entry was put off until this week.
The logical part of my brain tells me that any rational person would not blame me for missing those two weeks. I doubt that anyone would hold it against me. Real life happens for everyone, right? And my home flooding, leading to an emergency move in a limited time frame is surely serious enough to justify missing two weeks and entering the ORK data later then I had planned, right?
Except my brain doesn't work that way, and doesn't really care what most people would think. I spent those two weeks feeling guilty, and inadequate, like the slacker you implied I've been and like I was completely failing to live up to any of my responsibilities. I am PM, I'm supposed to be one of those knights you are always calling out to be "better" than everyone else, and somehow I should have been good enough at everything to be able to pack and move and clean and still go to the park and get all the ORK data entered on time. Clearly, I wasn't able to do so, which to me is failure.
Feeling guilty and inadequate and like a failure as I was, your post confirmed that all of the guilt I was feeling and the nasty names I'd been calling myself were true. I spent the evening in front of the ORK in tears, trying to find something else that I could fix, even though all the data I had was already entered. For the ten thousandth time I considered that perhaps I shouldn't be wearing a white belt.
No, you had no way of knowing that this was already being worked on- unless you asked, which you clearly decided was not the best way to go. But when you make that decision to post without first gathering information, you then have to deal with all the potential consequences of your actions, including that your words may do damage. You chose to criticize the records of a group and PM that is not your own. You chose the words you used. I took your post very seriously. My response was 100% sincere- it is my fault, and I do suck. I have no defense other than that I wasn't good enough to handle all of those things at the same time.
Choosing now to say "I give up" is irresponsible and unacceptable. They were your words. It was your choice to set yourself up as though you were an authority over another group, your choice to criticize their officer and their records. If you felt that you were in a morally superior position and had the right to make those comments, then you'd better have the respect- for yourself and your words as well as for others- to take the time to address what people are saying to you about what you posted. Stand up for your words, apologize for them, argue, flame- do anything, but don't you dare try to walk away from what you did as though it didn't matter and had no effect on anyone.
EDIT: Yes, I am very sincere about what I said above, and no, not one word of it was meant to fish for compliments or reassurance. I'd take it as a kindness if anyone who feels the urge to compliment or reassure me at this point would please stifle it. That isn't what this is about.
Post edited by: Talisin, at: 2006/08/25 14:24Tal
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FitzCaliston
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Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/25 15:16Tal, again I'm sorry. yes I spoke out of turn, yes I screwed up trying to make a point that apparently didin't need to be made, and I see that what I wrote was wrong, even if I didn't mean it in any of the ways that it was written.
My brain works odd, I write down what I'm thinking and with my perspective it means what I thought, it rarely comes across that way.
Again I'm sorry, I never wished to cause you any grief, pain etc. In some strange way I thought I'd be helping you. I thought maybe it would help your job. No I wasn't looking at the entire IMD just a few specific individuals that I've asked before about thier records and thier response was esentially "we don't care if our records are up to date, records are benieth us".
Again I'm sorry, I realize that I should never post when I don't have the time to preview and edit my posts for about 3 hours, and that impulse posting is just right out.
Tal I'm sorry,
Tal I'm sorry, I screwed up.
Tal I'm sorry, I'm was an ass.
Tal I'm sorry, please forgive me when your able, even though I have no right to ask it of you.
Fitz
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Talisin
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Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/25 15:57Everyone goes about something badly at some point in time. Everyone is wrong sometimes (especially me). Everyone screws up. I understand wanting to help. I understand wanting to reach out and fix everything that you see as being wrong or not quite as good as it should be. The question is should you, and how should you go about it? And when you do so, will you do it in a manner that is productive and helpful, or will you hurt people and make them feel that you look down on them? No one gets it right every time. Just don't get so frustrated when things don't come out exactly the way you meant them to that you fail to see the results and learn from them. We're all allowed to screw up, what is unforgivable is if we refuse to ever learn from our mistakes.
If someone truly feels I am screwing up and slacking (I feel that way and it won't be all that much of a surprise if others do), I absolutely want to hear it. I'll listen whether it's brought up to me in private or in public, it's just far less likely to create a situation if you start a little smaller and then work your way up to the scathing public outcry.
Tal
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Baine Wolfheart
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Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/27 00:14Talisin wrote: Everyone goes about something badly at some point in time. Everyone is wrong sometimes (especially me). Everyone screws up. I understand wanting to help. I understand wanting to reach out and fix everything that you see as being wrong or not quite as good as it should be. The question is should you, and how should you go about it? And when you do so, will you do it in a manner that is productive and helpful, or will you hurt people and make them feel that you look down on them? No one gets it right every time. Just don't get so frustrated when things don't come out exactly the way you meant them to that you fail to see the results and learn from them. We're all allowed to screw up, what is unforgivable is if we refuse to ever learn from our mistakes.
If someone truly feels I am screwing up and slacking (I feel that way and it won't be all that much of a surprise if others do), I absolutely want to hear it. I'll listen whether it's brought up to me in private or in public, it's just far less likely to create a situation if you start a little smaller and then work your way up to the scathing public outcry.
*runs up and gives Tal a hug then quickly runs away in fear i'll be clubbed*"The authority by which the Christian leader leads is not power but love, not force but example, not coercion but reasoned persuasion. Leaders have power, but power is safe only in the hands of those who humble themselves to serve."
Non nobis solum non nobis, sed omnibus
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Talisin
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Re:Who's the IMD PM? - 2006/08/28 06:56Baine Wolfheart wrote: *runs up and gives Tal a hug then quickly runs away in fear i'll be clubbed*
Ha. The clubbing will come from behind, when you least expect it. Tal
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