March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18I'm reposting the issues of the Allthing, so that we can have separate discussions on each type of issue without comments getting lost in the shuffle between issues.
Issue #1 Text: Allthing: Proposal #1 In regard to: 12.B. The Circle of Knights (Belted Circle) Add: 12.B.a.l. In order to vote upon a candidate, Knights must have attended six times within the last six months counting attendance in his or her home group, special events anywhere in the Empire (coronations, midreigns, quests, etc.), or Imperial Events. 12.B.a.2. Any knight residing in the Iron Mountains who does not meet the minimum attendance requirement may attend and speak in the Belted Circle, or otherwise communicate his/her opinion to the Emperor/Empress, but he/she will not have a vote counted towards approval of a candidate. Rationale: Under the current system, any knight living within the Iron Mountains has a vote that is counted for or against candidates, even if that knight has not been out to a single event or game day in years. This will allow for a more fair system of measurement.
Issue #3 Text: Allthing Proposal #3 Change: 12.B.d. The Emperor/Empress should have the Circle of Knights' approval by a simple, open ballot plurality vote for approval to knight a club member. To: 12.B.d. The Emperor/Empress may choose to knight a club member who has received approval from the Belted Circle by a simple, open ballot plurality vote. Add: 12.B.d.l. The Emperor/Empress may not knight any club member who has not received approval from the Belted Circle by a simple, open ballot plurality vote. Add: 12.B.d.2. The Emperor/Empress is not obligated to knight a member who has received approval from the Belted Circle; the Emperor/Empress holds veto power over any candidate. Rationale: Currently, regardless of the opinion of the Belted Circle, the monarch may knight anyone he/she chooses. The only change this makes is to restrict the monarch from knighting anyone who has not received a majority "yes" vote from the Circle; the monarch can still decide whether or not to knight someone who received a majority yes vote, but cannot knight someone who received a majority no vote.
Michael wrote:
regarding issue #1 Obviously this ballot item is to be combined with ballot item #3 below. Unless ballot item #3 is adopted this ballot item is meaningless. Under our current system the Circle of Knights votes but the Elected Representative of the People (i.e. the Emperor/Empress) makes the actual decision. On this basis there is no harm in allowing a knight whose attendance has lapsed to have some input. At times, some of our greatest knights like Moss or Talisen have either had their attendance lapse temporarily or come very close to it. I still think this kind of person has as much right to judge a candidate as any of us. In the end the Emperor will decide. If you are voting yes on Proposal #3 below this one also makes sense but I think proposal #3 is very much ill-advised and I would thus suggest a no vote on both of these items.
regarding issue #3 Compared to the current system this takes ultimate power over knighthood out of the hands of the Empress who is the elected representative of the people and puts it in the hands of a committee who never have to answer to the people (that is the Circle of Knights). I understand that there is some risk that a bad Emperor could be elected and could make a bad knight just because he wanted to. We have used this system for a long time in the Iron Mountains, ever since the inception of the Kingdom and no candidate has ever been knighted without the approval of the knight’s circle. Every single monarch has had this power and not one has ever felt compelled to use it. That is a good thing. Even Amtgard wide where most kingdoms have this system, it has happened less than ten times and that is counting all the ones in Goldenvale this year. On the other hand the Wetlands, who gives the final say to the knights rather than to the representative of the people, things appear to be seriously wrong. A candidate who has pissed off key members of the knight’s circle will never be knighted no matter what great things they do for the Empire. Under our current system the people could at least elect an Empress who was willing to knight the person. In fact it gets worse. In the WL a single fighting company controls more than 50% of the knights circle. If that company decides to vote against a candidate that person is screwed. Not that the Rogues actually abuse their position in this way. They certainly could, though. It also leads to wheeling and dealing in the Knight’s circle. I know that in the WL, the Rogues and Raiders (a group that formerly had the second most WL knights) talked about cutting deals to vote for each other’s candidates. Allowing the elected representative of all of us the power to cut such corrupt and disgusting practices off by over-ruling them prevents those very practices from developing. The whole system maintains a greater degree of integrity. I hate the idea of giving knights in our game more power. By virtue of being around so long and having prestige and contacts, we already have far too much power. As a knight who would always be voting anyway, I strongly suggest voting against this proposal. Every member of the Iron Mountains has a stake in keeping the Knighthood of our kingdom of the highest caliber. Only by allowing our elected representative to hold the final say do we protect that stake.
[Edit]changed from quote to italicized comments, so that they were readable.
Post edited by: Orlando Ebasdotter, at: 2005/02/15 18:35Count Orlando Sheriff of Obsidian Hills Kingdom of the Rising Winds
"A Kingdom is only as strong as the character of its citizens."
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Talisin
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18Michael wrote: At times, some of our greatest knights like Moss or Talisen have either had their attendance lapse temporarily or come very close to it. I still think this kind of person has as much right to judge a candidate as any of us. In the end the Emperor will decide. If you are voting yes on Proposal #3 below this one also makes sense but I think proposal #3 is very much ill-advised and I would thus suggest a no vote on both of these items.
Don't use me as an example! When I was working weekends for 8 months and wasn't voter eligible, I stopped going to and voting in Belted Circles until I was qual'd again. Because no, I don't think you should be entitled to a vote if you don't participate.
I also don't agree that #1 depends upon #3 passing. #1 could be passed by itself even though the monarch would still retain 100% power- it would just define the "advisory body vote" and still does not take away anyone's ability to voice their opinion.Tal
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Takezu
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18Sir MHOG has beat me to the post and stated quite a few of concerns, but I have a few questions.
Did something happen IM or in amtgard in general that could have been prevented with this rule? I like most non knights in amtgard have only a small understanding of the inner workings of the Belted circle. While I respect the knights and know that they each have had to earn and re-earn there white belts, I fear that giving the Belted Circle sole choice of who can become a knight could lead to a “old boys club” where deserving members could be overlooked.
I have always seen the job of the Emperor/Empress to be an elected servant of the people and of amtgard as a whole, where as the unelected CoK may or may not have that same agenda. I am not trying to say that I do not trust the CoK but simply that I have no idea how it works (can a member sit and listen to a CoK meeting?), most knights I know and/or have met are the most knowledgeable, dedicated and worthy people to play our great game (thus why they are knights). I am more wondering why we are changing a system that seems to me the simple casual player is working.
Akujin Takezu no WakagashiraIt is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. --Aristotle
Patriotism: The willing act of putting one's life & well being at risk for politicians who are not similarly disposed.
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Rewth
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18i'm inclined to agree with mikey on this, but for a little different reasons. in my opinion, what we have now seems to have worked. there were problems out east recently, but i don't think we need to rush to make preemtive changes to our corpora to fix the possibility of thier problems coming here.
i'm a huge fan of reducing the number of things in the corpora that say "this person can not do this". mainly because its jsut a game, and one that doesn't need to be dictated my a billion rules tha tare set in stone saying what can and can not be done within it. no matter what, you can always find a situation where something forbidden is acceptable given the circumstances.
i will second mikeys statement that sometimes a king nees to be able to push someone through regardless of the circle's opinions. i seriously hope such a situation never occurs, but the ability for it to happen needs to be there.
i almost didn't speak up on this matter. it's always been my opinion that the selection of knights is largely the responsibility of the knights circle. judging thier peers, and doing so honestly is thier duty, one that i trust them to do fairly. in fact, my personal stance is that should i ever be elected emperor, and i'm not wearing a white belt, i would give the honor of actually dropping the sword to one of hte knights. i feel strongly enough that its not my place as a non-knight to deem someone else a knight that i wouldn't feel comfortable doing it.
I guess i wouldn't jump to patch a perceived hole until it actually starts leaking. my vote will be no on this."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Talisin
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18Sorry if my use of you as an example was offensive. It was certainly intended to be the opposite.
Oh no, I wasn't offended at all! I generally consider myself to be a bad example in all things.
I just happen to be on the other side of this one. I don't think someone who doesn't at least show up occasionally should be sitting in judgement on others. I also don't think the monarch should have unchecked power, and I'm not thrilled about the idea of fixing that *after* something horrid happens.
Post edited by: Talisin, at: 2005/02/15 20:37Tal
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Talisin
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18Takezu wrote: Did something happen IM or in amtgard in general that could have been prevented with this rule?
The easy answer there is the monarch in GV who recently knighted 4 people in one night. It was debated to death on eSam, but the gist was that a couple of them were not discussed ahead of time and were basically done by the monarch because he could. Which led to a firestorm of enormous proportions and a ton of people crying foul after the fact.Tal
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Michael
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18Talisin wrote: Don't use me as an example! When I was working weekends for 8 months and wasn't voter eligible, I stopped going to and voting in Belted Circles until I was qual'd again. Because no, I don't think you should be entitled to a vote if you don't participate.
I also don't agree that #1 depends upon #3 passing. #1 could be passed by itself even though the monarch would still retain 100% power- it would just define the "advisory body vote" and still does not take away anyone's ability to voice their opinion.
Sorry if my use of you as an example was offensive. It was certainly intended to be the opposite. The fact that you didn't come to circles during that time doesn't change my statement that I did not consider your commitment to our hobby or your input any less valuable. The fact that you self governed is a mark in your favor but it doesn't change my feelings about the value of a semi-active knight. The fact that when your real life let you, your commitment returned full force futher convinces me.
Without #3, proposal #1 is pretty meaningless. All the knights are just voicing their opinion, altough no IM monarch has yet ignored that opinion. Often those people who are inactive offer valuable insights into the past and for an advisory purpose, I am very happy to give their comments the same weight as mine. After all as advisors, the Emperor will always choose how much weight to give who.
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The easy answer there is the monarch in GV who recently knighted 4 people in one night. It was debated to death on eSam, but the gist was that a couple of them were not discussed ahead of time and were basically done by the monarch because he could. Which led to a firestorm of enormous proportions and a ton of people crying foul after the fact.
Because the GV situation was discussed to death on E-Sam, I wanted to make sure that the real dangers of allowing the Knights final say as exhibited in the WL was explained as well.
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Michael
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18Talisin wrote: Sorry if my use of you as an example was offensive. It was certainly intended to be the opposite.
Oh no, I wasn't offended at all! I generally consider myself to be a bad example in all things.
I just happen to be on the other side of this one. I don't think someone who doesn't at least show up occasionally should be sitting in judgement on others. I also don't think the monarch should have unchecked power, and I'm not thrilled about the idea of fixing that *after* something horrid happens.Post edited by: Talisin, at: 2005/02/15 20:37
Cool. As to the final power, I would hate to see somehting horrible happen too but I am less worried about a corrupt king doing something awful since he has to answer to both the populace and the knights circle than I am about a corrupt circle who answers only to ourselves doing somehting horrible.
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Orlando Ebasdotter
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:18I kind of tend to agree with Tal on her points...
I think that trying to fix something like GV's catastrophe here would literally tear this kingdom apart...driving many, many good people from the game forever...especially with how clique-ish we tend to be (it's changing, yes, but it's still true) here in the IM.
If something needs to be done, it SHOULD be done proactively, not retroactively.
This kind of goes for the should it be done aspect, too, I think. Planning for the future never hurt. And as Michael said, this situation has never come up. But protecting everyone involved so no heartache could occur might be the best solution out there. I'm still a little bit iffy, but I think that I'm leaning towards yes on both issues.
If for nothing else, I feel that there simply aren't enough knights of the IM participating in Amtgard anymore... I want to see more IM knights on the field...competing in the arts and sciences...etc. Don't get me wrong...the knights that I do get to see out on the field and in competition are great, and I appreciate their continuing contributions to the club...but I want to see more knights setting and resetting the standards in this Kingdom... It's not all about Tourney day...at least it shouldn't be...the day to day functions of this club are more important than all of that...or at least, they should be...Count Orlando Sheriff of Obsidian Hills Kingdom of the Rising Winds
"A Kingdom is only as strong as the character of its citizens."
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Michael
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/02/17 08:35We avoid GV-like problems by not electing morons who are already in the middle of quitting Amtgard as our Emperor. OK thats oversiplifying, although it was the case in GV. Still the WL where no knight is ever made except by Rogue approval seems more dangerous. The good news is that if we take the power from the people (through the Empress) and give it to the knights, our current knighthood isn't so hidebound or unified that it is likely to hurt us for a few years.
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Today, I'm not sure I like the taking power from the people part...
Like I said, though, I'm still teetering the fence on this one. I'm not sure how I'll vote for it.
I strongly urge everyone to critically think about this issue, though, and vote the way you really feel. This issue is not as cut and dry as the clarifications issues, for example.Count Orlando Sheriff of Obsidian Hills Kingdom of the Rising Winds
"A Kingdom is only as strong as the character of its citizens."
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ebosidean
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Re:March 2005 Allthing- Knighting Issues - 2005/03/02 15:28I know I am not a member of the "core" of the IM, but truthfully the first issue where the knight must be present in order to vote is something I had thought would be common sense. Every other portion of the voting rights within the corpora requires an attendance and a paid dues status. The way I view it, and how I had thought about it, it made sense that this would and should be the ways it was done.
To put it simple if they can't vote within the all-thing then they should be restricted in the same matter within the CoK. Although as they have received their belt they should be treated just as within 12.B.1; as other knights of Amtgard, where they are allowed to attend the Circle and speak but do not get to vote within it.
Evan TEvan Traginoire Far Far away in the land of Dragonspine
"Don't argue with stupid people, they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"
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