Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/10/27 15:39Proposal #3: Heir Apparent Add the following to the IM Corpora: 10. F. HEIR APPARENT 1. Heir Apparent (“Prince”, “Princess”) exists to provide a position to run for an office during the Crown Qualification process. It is intended to give experience and encouragement with regards to how the Empire is run in preparation for their holding offices when they feel they are ready. A. The position of Heir Apparent holds no financial or legal obligation, as this is a mentorship position. 1. The Heir Apparent shall be elected during the Time of the Crown. 2. Candidates must be voting members of their local land and must qualify per Crown Qualifications. 3. The Heir Apparent must be 14 or older at the beginning of their term in office. B. The Heir Apparent should: a. Assist the Regent in planning feasts. b. Assist the Champion in conducting at least one equipment check, and the running of Weaponmaster. c. Serve as a reeve in at least two battlegames. e. Assist the Monarchy as necessary. 6. The Heir Apparent may bestow orders with the permission of the Monarch. 7. The Heir Apparent may be removed by joint agreement of the Monarch and Regent. 8. No person may hold the office of Heir Apparent for more than two consecutive terms. 9. The position of Heir Apparent may be left vacant. 10. May hold provincial office.
Discuss.Kord
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Grendel
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/10/27 16:11sounds good to meStrike First. Strike Hard. No Mercy. Hús Vetra Skald
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Korderellin
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/10/27 16:15While I do understand the idea of the Heir Apparent, and I do think that such a position has merit, I do not think it is something that needs to be added to our already too large corpora.
The Heir Apparent, as written, does not have any actual responsibilities that cannot be delegated to anyone at the monarch's discretion. Anyone can help with a feast, help run a tournament or even reeve (assuming they are reeve qualified). It is not even unheard of for someone other than the monarch to bestow an award with the monarch's permission (for example, knighting ceremonies). There is nothing here that is truly unique to the Heir Apparent; if a monarch wanted to have a position within their court titled "Heir Apparent" they are empowered to do so within the current bounds of the corpora. I do not see a need to add further items to the corpora that can be handled under our current structure.
Not only that, there are numerous things regarding the Heir Apparent position that this proposal does not cover that would be necessary to implement a new position. For instance, is the Heir Apparent required to qual? Must the heir apparent pass a reeve and corpora test? On the last one I would say yes, as they are expected to reeve, but it is not clearly delineated as a requirement for the office. On a very minor note, there are some minor revision items that, as submitted, would need to be brought back to althing for correction at a later point.
I believe that the use of such a position definitely has merit in encouraging new members to gain exposure to Imperial office, but this is something we can implement without making changes to an already unwieldy corpora.Kord
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Casca
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/10/28 04:02I guess I have to agree with Kord on this one. Considering the push to streamline the corpora, I'm not seeing much benefit to this proposal at this time. It's an excellent idea, but it doesn't need legislation in order to be implemented. I hope that future monarchs do so too.Casca Eruoy
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Hannibal Finvarra
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/10/28 04:58Could it end up as a 1/4 a page never used, yes it could. However does it give someone the choice to step up and learn yes, we need a way to train new players to take office. I see this as a step in that area.
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Grendel
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/10/28 13:55it also puts it into the corpora, puts it into mind, some new player could read about it and go "oh ok, I can do that? cool"Strike First. Strike Hard. No Mercy. Hús Vetra Skald
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Korderellin
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/10/28 14:15Hannibal Finvarra wrote: Could it end up as a 1/4 a page never used, yes it could. However does it give someone the choice to step up and learn yes, we need a way to train new players to take office. I see this as a step in that area.
But why can't we do this now, without having to add it to the Corpora? What benefit does putting it in the corpora give you regarding this position? I'd argue it gives you none, frankly.
Grendel wrote:it also puts it into the corpora, puts it into mind, some new player could read about it and go "oh ok, I can do that? cool"
But does it, really? Do newer people honestly go to the corpora for inspiration for office? Other than some of the more sadistic members of this group (raises hand), who goes to read the corpora for anything other than necessity? Also, is it the job of the corpora to encourage, or is it the job of the corpora to legislate? It's already bulky enough doing the former; do we really want to try and add further unnecessary information to try to make it do the latter as well, for what appears to be minimal benefit?
If getting involved is something that Monarch's want to encourage, they are much better equipped to inspire others to lead than the corpora is. If you want new people running for office and helping out, explicitly say so. Ask for the help. Make people feel like they are empowered to do so by your actions and by your words, not by trying to have the corpora do it for you.Kord
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Hannibal Finvarra
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/10/29 01:01Korderellin wrote: Hannibal Finvarra wrote: Could it end up as a 1/4 a page never used, yes it could. However does it give someone the choice to step up and learn yes, we need a way to train new players to take office. I see this as a step in that area.
But why can't we do this now, without having to add it to the Corpora? What benefit does putting it in the corpora give you regarding this position? I'd argue it gives you none, frankly.
It very well could not benefit the kingdom at all, but one of the issues I see is we keep pulling from the same pools. For the past 2 tourneys, the pool of people I have had to pick from is so small it makes me sad. I had placed "adds" asking for help, and straight up asked people. I would rather encourage people to do things, but I can't talk to everyone about why or why not they like or want to do office. This in my eyes is another hook in the water to bring those people up, into the open.
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Kota
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/11/30 02:27ok knowing that it has failed and that i did not vote, mainly because i am pretty sure I am not dues paid, but why can this not be in the corpora as an office. I have some newbies who I want to do more then just fight, whether it is service, a&S or runnign an office. This would have been a perfect position for the more politically leaned people. Yes, seneschal is a bit of everything but in all reality it doesn't teach anyone about politics, because while it is written as champion,PM, and monarch of Crownlands. All that is required is taking attendance. I would like to see this pass someday.
During my term I was trying to hold a battlegame every week. eventually, I stopped trying so hard because I was tired of the winter days where it was mostly newbies and stickjocks. I stgopped because the battlegames were ruined for the new people because the stickjocks complained about it so much.Kota Bloodmoore
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Korderellin
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/11/30 14:17Because it adds nothing of substance to the corpora, and can be done normally by pretty much any individual.
Let's look at the individual responsibilities of the "Heir Apparent":
a. Assist the Regent in planning feasts. Plenty of people help assist the Regent in planning/implementing feasts. This is not something that we need a corpora mandated position to accomplish.
b. Assist the Champion in conducting at least one equipment check, and the running of Weaponmaster. Again, there is no need for this to be in the corpora, as anyone who is reeve qualified can assist the Champion in checking weapons, and we are ALWAYS looking for people willing to step up and help run tournaments. It's not like this is off limits for any member of the populace.
c. Serve as a reeve in at least two battlegames. We already have a position that is able to reeve in battlegames. It's called a reeve. We don't need a brand new position to get people involved in reeving.
e. Assist the Monarchy as necessary. Again, if the monarchy needs assistance, they can ask. Anyone can step up and offer assistance to the monarchy; we don't need a new position created for this.
6. The Heir Apparent may bestow orders with the permission of the Monarch. This is about the only one that seems to be even remotely original to the position; however, upon further reflection, we already have the precedent of someone other than the monarchy bestowing awards. Knighthoods can and very often are bestowed by members of the CoK at the monarch's discretion. The corpora does not specifically give knights the ability to drop the sword; it is an assumed power that the monarchy allows. It is therefore conceivable that the monarchy would allow this for any member of the populace. Again, we don't need a new position to do this.Kord
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Kota
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/11/30 22:28So it would have to be written differently, but having the position as an option for the people interested but don't exactly know what they would be getting into or can't get into office because of various reasons.Kota Bloodmoore
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Korderellin
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/12/01 01:37I guess I keep coming back to one basic question: Why does it need to be in the corpora?
If people want to get involved, but don't know how, or don't know whether they want to jump right in the deep end, all they have to do is ask, and be willing to make the necessary effort to learn.
If a monarch wants to have an "Heir Apparent" for a specific reign, go for it! But we should be encouraging people to do this sort of stuff, not legislating it as a requirement, or as an optional officer that never gets used.
The corpora is primarily a document legislating the requirements, not a document meant for encouraging people to get involved. Inspiring people to get involved is the job of the leadership, not the corporate bylaws.Kord
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Kota
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/12/01 05:32Then push for said leadership. We do not have enough of an active drive to try and get more participation. So either push for more or try for a little bit at a time. Why does it need to be in the corpora? it doesn't but until there is more drive for other people WANTing to do stuff, that quarter page or however long won't really matter, because people are going to hate reading it just as much as they can either way.
currently, most, not all but most, people who end up in office, do it because someone has too, not because they want to. Then it seen by newer players as a horrible job that they end up not wanting anything to do with. Yes it can be implemented iwhtout putting it inot the corpora but no one actively does.
Post edited by: Kota, at: 2009/12/01 06:05Kota Bloodmoore
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Lokin
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Re:Althing Proposal Discussion: Prop 3 - 2009/12/01 13:55Then it's a cultural thing that needs to be changed.
People need to get ahold of those Young/New impressionable people and show them that leading can be fun. And that Anti-Politics compels those who don't want to step up to do so.
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