Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/22 15:05alright, so then what if I said that Kansas City is a future kingdom and you should recognize our geographic boundaries?
Sorry for the snark there, but can you see my point?
Anyways, before i bow out(my job is done, you're talking, great), I do want to correct a tiny oversight on your part Z. There is no principality for WG. They tried that once and it blew up on them. so, that having happened, WG is semi likely to become a static crown when/if they make kingdom. The corpora they've written, for now, is kind of a hybrid between the two, but that can change.
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Weezicus
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Posts: 139
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/22 15:24Those that who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it.
Remember the PRP. Its not as easy as that sounds. TRUST ME.Principality Prime Minister Lucius Weezicus de Large, M.Wz.
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catherine
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Posts: 3
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/22 16:24Hi all, I am Catherine d'Avignon, Chancellor/Prime Minister of Falcon Tor.
IM core's position seems to be as follows (I know you'll all jump in to correct me if I'm wrong here): 1) Falcon Tor has only two choices, Freehold or join RW/WG, based solely on one factor over which we have no control, geography. 2) The fact that Omaha and Indianapolis are equal distances from Columbia is irrelevant. 3) There is no question that WG will get to be a kingdom at some point, and Falcon Tor must just sit on our hands until that happens. 4) The only assistance we can hope for from IM is "willingness to work for a solution".
Okay, I accept. (I don't necessarily agree with any of the above points, but that is the framework as I understand it.)
Falcon Tor is a small group - a core of about 25 people, mostly high schoolers and college-age working folk. We are growing, even in our current circumstances, by about 4 people per week. Our Park treasury is less than $200. We have fewer than ten dues paid members. We have 3-5 experienced LARPers and lots of heart and willingness to work hard.
We have been thrown out of the Columbia city parks by the Parks and Recreation Dept. who are now demanding we get liability insurance to cover $2 million per instance if we want to return to any of the city parks. When we appealed to e-Sam for help with this issue, we got more assistance from groups in Maryland than from RW or WG. I am not certain that RW even knows about our situation. When the Knoblands, in Springfield, MO (already a RW park) faced the same situation, they were told by RW that it was "their park, their problem." They have, on their own, solved their insurance issue by one person donating the $800 for the first year's insurance payment, but they have no idea where they will get the funding for next year's insurance payment. This is not a feasible solution for Falcon Tor. There are no county parks suitable to play at. Right now we are playing at one of our member's cattle farms, but we cannot remain there forever. So if RW/WG is the kingdom for us, how do we convince them to actually help us when we are faced with a catastrophic, park-killing problem, we are ill-equipped to solve on our own?
Western Gate has a fairly widely-known reputation as a hard-core stickjock park. Our park is small, and young, and we have no "stick." Yet we continue to have fun playing Amtgard. We emphasize the "softer side of" Amtgard, and are, pretty much unbearably flurby in WG's eyes, but it makes us happy. Rivermoor's "Rescue the Princess from the Pirate Kidnappers" was a blast, when we returned from their Coronation, we were glowing. They are lovely, open, welcoming people who understand and value the same parts of Amtgard that we do. We only want to be a part of that - if not that, then something like it. When we attended WG's MidReign events, our officers and populace came back disappointed, some even shell-shocked. When they come to our events, they leave, well, from current e-Sam postings, very angry. We have no problem with WG, their "Amtgard" is just as valid as ours; we just have no common ground with them, either. As we see it, Amtgard is a game, a hobby, maybe even a sport. It is, at its heart, supposed to be fun. Neither us nor WG have fun together. How do we close this gap so that we can have fun, without giving up what we love about this game? How do we earn respect from a group that only respects what we do not have?
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Talisin
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Posts: 534
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/22 17:48catherine wrote: 1) Falcon Tor has only two choices, Freehold or join RW/WG, based solely on one factor over which we have no control, geography.
You can choose to petition any kingdom you like. We don't dictate that choice for you. We only decide what we are going to do/not going to do.
3) There is no question that WG will get to be a kingdom at some point, and Falcon Tor must just sit on our hands until that happens.
See #1.
4) The only assistance we can hope for from IM is "willingness to work for a solution".
Assistance with what? So far all we've seen is a petition to join. Did you ask us for some other type of assistance? Did anyone imply that if you weren't a group of ours we would not be willing to assist you with anything? What kind of assistance are you expecting?
When we appealed to e-Sam for help with this issue, we got more assistance from groups in Maryland than from RW or WG. I am not certain that RW even knows about our situation.
eSam is not where you should be appealing for help from a specific kingdom- if you expect someone in particular to help you, you should contact them through private e-mails or their kingdom's lists/forums. Not really siding one way or the other, just pointing out that a failure to respond to a request on eSam is not the same as a failure to respond to a direct request. I don't know of any kingdom that has designated eSam as its official point of contact.
When the Knoblands, in Springfield, MO (already a RW park) faced the same situation, they were told by RW that it was "their park, their problem." They have, on their own, solved their insurance issue by one person donating the $800 for the first year's insurance payment, but they have no idea where they will get the funding for next year's insurance payment. This is not a feasible solution for Falcon Tor. There are no county parks suitable to play at. Right now we are playing at one of our member's cattle farms, but we cannot remain there forever. So if RW/WG is the kingdom for us, how do we convince them to actually help us when we are faced with a catastrophic, park-killing problem, we are ill-equipped to solve on our own?
What did you/they expect them to do? We can't find a park for you, we're a little far away to assist with that. Generally the only assistance anyone is able to offer in cases like this is advice/ideas. We don't pay for insurance for individual member parks and we have no financial give-and-take with non-core parks at all.
Convincing someone to help is generally as simple as talking to them and proposing reasonable ways in which they could help.
As we see it, Amtgard is a game, a hobby, maybe even a sport. It is, at its heart, supposed to be fun. Neither us nor WG have fun together. How do we close this gap so that we can have fun, without giving up what we love about this game? How do we earn respect from a group that only respects what we do not have?
Other than the posts on eSam, how much talking have you done with them to try to solve your differences?Tal
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Takezu
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Posts: 717
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/22 19:12I disagree that you are ill-equipped to handle this. You are searching out for more ideas of what to do. And that is key.
Have you talked with the head of the city parks?
I personally would get a meeting with the head of the parks and simply talk about the issue with them. If nothing else it will allow you to request that they write down the reasons for deigning you the use of the public spaces. You can then take your time and try to dispel and misunderstandings about the purpose and safety of amtgard and politely show that your group is being signaled out for differential treatment as other amateur sports or recreational groups are not required to have insurance, such as baseball teams practicing outside of game days, yoga classes that use the parks, Frisbee golfers, and even fathers and sons tossing a ball around. All these activities have inherent danger and by their logic should be forced to carry insurance.
There are a lot of things that can be used to persuade people, from the lengthy sections on safety in the rulebooks, the reeve classes and the steps needed to become a reeve, to simple facts that other areas allow PE credit for attending amtgard, because it’s a safe and healthy way to get exercise. Also remember that everyone other then the mayor of the town has a direct boss that they must report to. If you hit a brick wall with one person or department, simply and politely move to the next level and make your case anew. After doing that you could talk to the local news paper and ask them to do a story on amtgard, Show what you do, That its safe and fun and see if that changes the cities mind. But its important to always appear upbeat and positive when dealing with the city.
I would be more than happy to assist you all in making your case. But you have to do this, even if you where under the IM we cannot. We are more than happy to help with advice, but you don’t have to be in the IM for us to do that. I would do it for any amtgarder that asks.It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. --Aristotle
Patriotism: The willing act of putting one's life & well being at risk for politicians who are not similarly disposed.
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catherine
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Posts: 3
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/22 20:28Talisin:
Assistance with what? So far all we've seen is a petition to join. Did you ask us for some other type of assistance? Did anyone imply that if you weren't a group of ours we would not be willing to assist you with anything? What kind of assistance are you expecting?
I apologize for not being clearer. We have not asked IM for assistance prior to today. I was simply summing up my understanding of your (IM core's) position. Which was, to the best of my understanding, that you won't accept us but you will try to help us. As I tried to state with my post, I am accepting that "assistance" and here are some issues I'd like help with.
eSam is not where you should be appealing for help from a specific kingdom
You are absolutely correct. I used that as an independently verifiable example of the lack of response, or even sympathy, that we have received from the group, as a prelude to the question "how do we convince them to actually help us". So much of what Core IM has seen of this situation looks like we are just whining, he-said-she-said, fingerpointing, whatever. Maybe that's true, but I wanted to give you a chance to look and see for yourself that we have asked for support and we have not gotten it. We have tried contacting RW/WG directly, but that's not something easy for you to verify.
What did you/they expect them to do?
I have no idea. We are out of ideas. We did, however, assume that the most important function of belonging to a group larger than yourself is that others have ideas, years of experience, perspectives, and contacts that you do not. You, Taliesin, have already done more than RW/WG simply by saying that IM does not "pay for insurance for individual member parks and we have no financial give-and-take with non-core parks at all." Does this mean that you financially support core parks?
how much talking have you done with them to try to solve your differences?
:: sigh :: Clearly not enough. Not enough that they would ever be our first choice for Kingdom sponsor.
Takezu:
Thank you for your reasonable, compassionate response. We met with the Parks board on March 17. Again, you can verify this on eSam http://www.electricsamurai.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12588&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0. We wore suits, we brought them a copy of the rulebook and weapons and arrows to inspect. We were polite and receptive to their concerns and suggestions. We plead our case. They were fair with us, giving in on the use of archery but standing firm on the Liability Insurance requirement as it was passed by the City Council. There's no getting around it.
We have looked in to becoming a University of Missouri student group, but that would require that MU students be automatically placed into positions of leadership, unfairly excluding non-students from officer positions. It is further impeded by the fact that we have only one MU student member, and he is in law school, and monumentally busy.
We are currently working with the same insurance company that Knoblands is using, trying to create an "Amtgard of Missouri" policy that would cover all parks in the state. It does not solve the issue of how we are going to pay for it. It also does not solve the issue that once we have insurance, we have assets worth suing for.
We don't expect any other group, Kingdom or not, to solve our problems for us. I only brought this situation up because 1) you offered to try to help, and 2) to illustrate exactly why we don't feel that geography should be the deciding factor in Kingdom sponsorship.
We want to do what is best for our group – and that is to become associated with other groups that we could turn to; even if all they can respond with is sympathy. So far, up to this moment, RW/WG is not that group. We can't make you accept us. Life's not fair, we get it. But it was worth trying. I believe that, and our group believes that.
Post edited by: catherine, at: 2008/04/22 20:31
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Talisin
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Posts: 534
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/22 20:42catherine wrote: Does this mean that you financially support core parks?
Not really. Because they are within driving distance and we try to combine things like courts, feasts and events they may get the benefit of Imperial funds helping to make something they are a part of that much cooler. Dues are paid to the parks, not to the kingdom- historically, the kingdom takes a small percentage of those dues, but the majority of kingdom funds always comes from Rakis and mostly gets fed back into Rakis each year.Tal
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Takezu
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Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/22 21:43You are most welcome, after reading the e-sam thread I would give a few other suggestions, 1. Ask around at a few of the sports stores and see if any other group is having the same issues, get together with them petition the city as a group. Or document how the rules are being unfairly applied. 2. Go to the press, talk with a reporter, show them what amtgard is, and have them do a story about your issue with the city. Reporters love to point out how city regulations cost groups with a total budget of 200 a year pay 800 in fees. 3. As esam hinted at global amtgard insurance is possible. Work with other groups in and out of your area that have to have the insurance to work out a group deal. 4. Start to think of ways to raise the money, such as a Car wash. It would allow you to raise money quickly, be a good demo and raise awareness of your issue. If there is a renaissance Fair in your area get with the people that run it and see if your group can do a fundraiser there. Run an amtgard camping event on the cattle ranch (if possible) as a fund raiser or have a donation auction and put it online so other amtgarders can donate and or bid on items to raise the money. Hell see the mayor and ask if there are any grants the city has that you could apply for, or ask to be a part of the budget. Remember the park managers are not elected officials (or I guess I assume they are not), But their bosses are, keep fighting it and ask for their help in finding a solution.It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. --Aristotle
Patriotism: The willing act of putting one's life & well being at risk for politicians who are not similarly disposed.
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Savaen
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Posts: 6
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/25 23:49Wow - I'm gone for 2 weeks, come back and catch up on the forums, and find out that Z has taken my job <grin>.
i didn't dismiss your group because i think you don't know what you are doing, i said no because when WG becomes a kingdom you will be in its core.
I guess its a good thing that this was my reply to Sir Rammork :
Most Honorable Sir Rammork,
I apologize that it has taken me this long to get back to you. I have been working through a family crisis (my mom was diagnosed with cancer and is reacting poorly to the chemotherapy - the last two weeks I was in Alabama taking care of her).
I have thoroughly examined your packet and you definitely meet the paper requirements for sponsorship. The only factor preventing me from presenting your petition to Principality Althing is your proximity (126 miles according to Google maps) to Western Gate. As you may know, they are preparing to petition for Kingdom status in the near future and Falcon Tor resides in the 150 mile radius that the Empire of the Iron Mountains would consider to be their "core" area.
With the uproar over whether North Haven (Chicago) should remain an IM park, or be part of RW and the subsequent talk of "park poaching" I feel that Falcon Tor's best course of action would be to petition the Rising Winds. I know we spoke at Rivermoor's coronation about the possibility of joining Olympus' new Principality (now called Steel Valley) but I doubt (and I am only speaking for myself) that your membership there would be approved by IM on the same grounds that I have stated above.
Having met yourself, Catherine (what a great lady!) and Baron Lorell I strongly believe that your park doesn't require the kind of "support" a fledgeling shire would usually need. You have experienced leadership and, looking through your packet, quite a few enthusiastic "youngsters" that actually have a clue. Truthfully, if RW looks at your packet as thoroughly as I did, they would realize what an asset they would be getting by sponsoring you.
That aside, I would like to reassure you that we of Rivermoor will support you in every other way we can. I know that several of us are planning on visiting, and we are always available if you have questions, or just need to brainstorm.
Yours in Service, Countess Dame Savaen Azhmarek Vicereine of Rivermoor
Z, I love you, man - but have a little faith in my ability to do my job
I wish we could pick this whole group up and move them closer to Omaha because they truly do have their stuff together. Since we can't, I REALLY want to find a solution for them. They are a great group and deserve our best efforts to help them.
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catherine
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Posts: 3
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/26 12:14:: crushed ::
Thank you, Vicereine Savaen, for your kind words and careful consideration. I do hope your mother's health improves. See you next month for Spring Trials!
Yours in service, Catherine d'Avignon Freehold of Falcon Tor
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zumat
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Posts: 61
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/26 15:28Z, I love you, man - but have a little faith in my ability to do my job
so noted. i'm not cut out for this politic shit, and therefore defer to you on this matter.
ima go ditch.
z
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Rammork
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Posts: 2
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/26 23:42Just to let everyone know, due to our insurance problems we have moved our park location to Ashland Mo. Just for you Emperor Z it is 144 miles from Western Gate. I tried to move the state a little west but came up short by six miles. Oh well you can only do so much.
Post edited by: Rammork, at: 2008/04/26 23:43
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Uncle Willie
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Posts: 40
Re:imperial weekend report... the reportening - 2008/04/27 08:22We know anyone in the USGS? Get some maps re-drawn?
-WilliamI drink beer.
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