Maille armor values - 2006/01/22 23:50I'm vague on how the armor values for various sorts of maille are calculated. I'd like to know before I begin my next project. Might as well follow the rules and have a cool project at the same time!
As I understand, standard is 4:1 european with 16ga wire and 3/8" rings, for a base effective armour of 3. Thus a 18ga wire with a 3/8 ring has a -1 value, efective 2 points, yes? And a 20ga with the same ring is a -2, effective 1 point of armor. Correct? 14ga would be +1, right? 12ga at +2?
Ring size as I understand would also affect armor value. A 16ga wire with a 2/8 ring is a +1? So if standard is 3/8 (or 6/16) and a +1 is for 2/8 (or 4/16), how are 5/16 ring treated? Or is a 5/16 a +1 with a 4/16 a +2? How much of a rings size change is considered in this factoring? Being completely anal retentive here, how about 32nds?
My shirt now is a 18ga with 3/16 rings, and I'm told its a 4 point shirt (3 base, -1 for ga, +2 for ring size). This true? Maybe I got the superior construction without knowing? Or should I have gotten a 5 point out of it, but max bonus is +2, so 4 points?
Augmented maille is considered a +1 to the base, so base of 4 points. Cool, I assume that a 6:1 European weave is considered augmented, yes? Is it pretty much the case where everything other than 4:1 is considered augmented?
Superior construction will give a +1 bonus, cool. I've had mentioned to me that I need to put a gold trim or something around my shirt to get that. But seriously, that's considered to be superior construction? An emblem I could see, but just a trim?
Does type of metal play a factor here at all? Steel being the norm of course, how are things like bronze or titanium handled? Aluminum being a -1 for non authenticity I can see, but would we really penalize people who put the $ in for titanium?
What about heat treatment? Might not be as meaningful with maille, but what about plates or metal scales?
Hope to get some clarification on this one, I'm going nuts not having a project at the moment and as soon as I get some answers I can start my next one!
Regards, Murdoc
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Rewth
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/01/23 07:50there is only one item that can give chainmail a bonus. thats using thicker guage metal. if chain uses smaller rings, or a denser weave, then it is considered "augmented chain" instead and boosted to 4. any modification over top of the standard 16g, 4 in 1, 3/8th rings immediately bumps it up ot augmented. this goes for spiffy weaves AND plates as well. there is no multiple applications of this.
5/16th rings would be questionable since its only barely noticeable. it istechnally better, but it is hard to see with the naked eye. so it will be brought into question regularly.
as for thinner guage materials applying a penalty... the rules as currently written do not acutally support this... if you don't meet hte guage then its not armor... which is dumb. pretty much, if its thinner guage we apply a -1. but i've never seen a -2 for thinner guage. you prolyl have to use auminum foil to get that, at which point you get told it really isn't armor.
for superior construction... yeah.... not likely. the im gives out hte superior construction award VERY VERY rarely. you pretty much need to enter it into a dragonmaster and have it tkae best of show or VERY close to that in order to recieve it. in the case of chain, if you don't at least match some of the stuff evil ryss has built in the past, you are unlikely to receive it. ryss set the bar pretty damn high.
as for metals... the term "inauthentic" in our game usually is interpreted to mean "lighter". aluminum will ALWAYS garner that penalty. doesn't matter what you do with it. titanium i think will also get it. its more of a balancing factor. just because you sink a grand into your rings doesn't mean you should get a benefit over everyone else in that your suit weighs half as much. its certianly inauthentic, so it will be applied. pretty much any type of steel or iron will be let slide. copper and bronze are interpreted differnetly by many people. i like them o nthe field so i let em slide.
so... all that siad, it pretty much boils down to:
3/8th, 16g, 4 in one.... 3 points anything noticably better without thicker guage... 4 points anythign noticably better with thicker guage... 5 pts. anything noticably worse without lighter metal... 2 points anything noticably worse with lighter metal... 1point
that that what this results in is aan absolute max of 6 points (when worn with a gamebson) and unlitmately the max 7 points for 6th warriors. as i understand it from discussions with the designers, this was VERY intentional for chainmail. they were tired of people stacking mods on chain to get max value armor without much effort. now it takes some serious time/weight to pull it off.
as for your armor.... as described i would question its points. i would give it a three. augmented mail (because of ring size) =4pts, -1 for guage = 3pts. and unless its got some amazing inlay or some super intricate weaves in it, i wouldn't give the superior workmanship bonus. but... i don't believe i have seen your armor. so i can't be 100% sure on any of it.
Post edited by: rewth, at: 2006/01/23 12:12"But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Cruz
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/01/23 07:53you do mean 3/8ths not 3/16ths right?Cruz Hús Vetra Skald "Sand is over rated, it is just a bunch of tiny rocks..." "The more you sweat during practice the less you bleed in battle"
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Rewth
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/01/23 12:12yes i did... thanks. edited."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Murdoc
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/01/23 13:29Excellent, thank you for the clarification. So a 14ga 6:1 weave, is considered augmented, thus worth 4 points?
And what about scales? I made one shirt from mild steel scales from the ring lord, got 4 points for it. Seems awful low to me, judging from the example 5 point armors. Seems like it's closers to lamllar to me, thus 5 points. That being said, heat treating.... count for anything?
Regards, Murdoc
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Rewth
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/01/23 13:5314ga 6:1 is absolutely augmented. and is a 4pt base.
heat reating first, cuz its easier... gets you nothing. its a material issue. either its steel/iron or its not. heat treated isn't going to change things enough to matter.
scales are wierd. thus far no one has been able to make a convincing argument one way or the other. specifically i nthe case of the scales from ring lord.
some people look at the scale and immediately say augmented chain, based o nthe premise that its chain plus something. and because plates are specifically listed. (so 4pt base)
some people point to the underlying weave and claim its weaker than our base for standard chain and therefor should be equal to regualr chain only once the scales are factored in. (so 3 point base)
some argue that its not chain....that if those scales were attached to leather they would garner a +2 and would be attached exactly as they are attached to one another. and there is no underlying leather... (2pt base)
some folks argue that they don't meet the 16g metal requirement so should be penalized regardless of the base. (-1 pt to base)
and still other start adding in ideas bout giving bonus based on using split rings vs butted rings, using the small scales vs the large scales, etc etc....
my PERSONAL opinion is that they look hella good. they are something that should be encouraged on the field. and regardless of construction method or thickness or scale size... call it three points and walk away. (i view it as augmented, but find the thinner guage the be relevant) but in the end i jsut kinda nod and smile at whatever another reeve wants to score it as and avoid giving my own score o nthe piece. given thier increasing prevalence in the game, an officail stance needs to be made by the CoM i think, because its not very clear one way or another.
Post edited by: rewth, at: 2006/01/23 13:57"But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Murdoc
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/01/23 14:38Interesting, seems that all the arguments are to lessen the point value of scales. Very interesting. When making these sorts of decisions, does anyone actually field test these things?
So another question on armor construction then. I'm in the process of making bracers. They're a 16ga single piece steel sheet (so that I can count them as plate) and they're backed with leather so that I can attach them to my arms. Does this count as plate then, or scale? I'm working on the assumption that a hit on the metal would be a plate, a hit on the inner arm (leather) would be counted as leather.
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assuming the bracers are predominantly one solid piece of metal (or articulated) the nthe yare plate. 6 points....
however... if the entire forarm is leather, enough that its worth bother with, the nyou average the points... which gets sketchy.
basically you determine what percentage of the bracers are one type and what percentage are the other. this results in a final value. the nthat piece has a value equal to it. i would guess yours will be given a 6 unless the leather on the foram is notably large, the nyou might see a 1 point reduction.
this also goes for using multiple types of armor on the same hit location. lets say you have a pair of bracers of your lower arms tha tare 6 point plate. then you put on pauldraons that cover roughly the same area on your upper arms, but they are only 2 point leather. since the bracers constitute 50% of the armor on your arms, and the pauldrons constitute the other 50% its all averages equally and you get 4 points. your arm now has 4 points of armor. regardless of which piece of armor is hit you subtract from the arm's armor value, not the individual pieces.
where this gets a little confusing is that empty space is concerned, you do NOT take it into account. so a 6 point breastplate that exposes 50% of your back doesn't suddenly become 3poitns cuz you average it with 0. does that make sense?
as for real life testing.... yes, some people go out and smash thier armor to bits to get an idea of how much it would stop real life attacks. however, its farily rare, and is NEVER the determining factor. because this is a game, the ultimate deciding factor is game balance. in the case of the ring lord's scale armor.... the mobility is 100% identical to chainmail, and the weight is often times lighter. the only thing making it ALWAYS lower points than chain is the fact that it looks awesome and might be slightly more protective in real life.
ultimately the heavier or rigid an armor is, the more it impedes your ability to fight in it. and the more we are going to be willing to give it more points. something super light and super flexible is should never score as high because it gives an unfair advantage. whats more, the more impressive and cool something looks, the better it wil lscore, because it improves the look of our game and draws more people to us, something which should always be rewarded."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Reverend Loki
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/03/07 09:28Rewth. what would my chain be? Dakewon knows the measurements but i have been playing it as 4 points. its heavier than shit(one reason why riddick wont wear his) and i believe that it should be worth more, i mean i have seen guys claiming 3 pts with leather! So is my chain four or five?I'm the mighty Lion in the thicket who be spying on the wicked- Shabaz the Diciple
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women.- Conan the Barbarian on what is best in life.
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Grendel
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/03/07 10:33Loki, I think your chain is 4 in 1, is that correct?
if so that's a base of 3 points, then depending on the diameter of the rings and the width of them that could add or minus a point. If I remember the rings are fairly thick, so it might be 4 points if it's thick enough.Dragoon Strike First. Strike Hard. No Mercy. Hús Vetra Skald IMU
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FitzCaliston
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/07/19 04:58Rewth wrote: 14ga 6:1 is absolutely augmented. and is a 4pt base.
Actually no, 6:1 makes it augmented raising the point value to 4pts. Heavier guage materials (14 gauge steel as opposed to 16 gauge) gives an additional point giving it a base of 5pts. Throw a gambeson under and your sitting at 6pts.
"Augmented chain: chain augmented in some fashion from the standard 4 in 1,.... "(then a few examples are listed, but they are not the only examples, 6:1 qualifies).
"Heavy gauge material is material that exceeds the 16 gauge standard for rings or plates."
Strictly speaking.....
You can't judge all chain based against Evil R's. If that were the case no one would get points for 4:1 at all and his would be worth 12pts.
Post edited by: FitzCaliston, at: 2006/07/19 05:03
Post edited by: FitzCaliston, at: 2006/07/19 15:25
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Rewth
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/07/19 16:03yep. yer right. i wasn't paying attention to the gauge listed.
however, even evil ryss' chain wouldn't ever get upwards to 12. if i am not mistaken it falls in around 6...
augmented chain = 4pts heavy guage +1 superior construction +1 (granted on the basis of its performance in both dragonmaster and olympiad)
thats it. chain doesn't have much that can give it bonuses."But right now I'm a little concerned about my pants, since I don't know where they are." - Valathina Nailo
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Lumpy
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Re:Maille armor values - 2006/07/19 17:12at the risk of dumping my karma into the negative double digits because somone out ther REALLY doesn't like me...
Recently an indian reproduction company called deepeeka has unvailed it's new line of pre cut and punched scales devloped with the help of reenactors from around the world and the roman army talk forums. their size is 15x25mm and range from .25-.3 mm thick alone, bear in mind they are to over lap both horizontally and vertically with other scales sewen onto a heavy linen canvas backing( yes just one layer historically OMFG!!) with a stiff and or heavly padded arming garnment which is necessary to provide the full ammount of protection this armour is able to afford. heres a link to a pic of them http://w10.eleven2.com/~joorthuy/rat/download.php?id=593&sid=be4821ca0889827e15f773726d7a9207
Another thing on the horizon is a new line of mass produced riveted maille. it is a joint venture between the famous maille smith Erik d. schmid and GDFB. it amost definately be the most authentic/ historically accurate maille to hit the mass market. I'm pretty sure the roman maille is 7mm OD with about 1mm wire thickness with alternateing rows of solid/rivited rings. heres a link with a few pics. http://webpages.charter.net/erikdschmid/ and the company which Mr.schmid is working with's site: http://www.gdfb.co.uk/
just thought it was cool stuff and thought i'd share.
Post edited by: Lumpy, at: 2006/07/19 17:12
Post edited by: Lumpy, at: 2006/07/21 17:54Yes, hate me, hate me with all your being and let the hate flow through you!
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